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Sports persons taking the knee

Sweep said:
I was going to ignore this insulting post but actually why should I?
IF you had bothered to read my original post you would have seen that my main concerns were based around the effectiveness of taking the knee in achieving equality. Now, I know that you may not agree. That’s fine. Your prerogative. The more sensible on here understand that people have differing opinions and that creates discussion which is what forums are all about. Now of course this is an emotive subject. I wasn’t surprised in the slightest when those - who wrongly believe those who don’t agree with footballers taking the knee must be racist - tried to pick a hole in my post. The hole that was picked was my thought that Sky may have had an ulterior motive for showing the QPR Millwall game. I was wrong. They didn’t. I acknowledged it. I believed it was a trivial point in a serious discussion. I formed this belief because of what I see as completely over the top indulgence by Sky on this subject. At this point what we were discussing was Sky Sports scheduling. Another forumer posted that it was right to challenge such misinformation and attitudes. So he was either referring to Sky schedules or he was insinuating I have racist attitudes. As this poster has no knowledge of me or my background I hoped he was referring to Sky schedules but let’s be honest, he was most likely actually making wild, wholly inaccurate and serious accusations. The post you replied to was me making it clear we were talking about schedules. You are actually calling me an idiot for making it clear I am not a racist.

And herein lies a problem. Because people who shout “racist” every time someone says something they don’t 100% agree with actually often perpetuate the problem. They actually get in the way of finding the best, most incisive way of making it clear racism is not acceptable in football or anywhere in society. It stifles the debate that will get us where we need to be. People are scared to suggest anything that deviates from the script for fear of being called a racist. I nearly fell for it myself when I read your reply. I thought I had better not post, it will lead to more trouble, I wasn’t even going to defend myself.

Where we differ is that you believe this gesture in football is working. I don’t. You think that it’s good Sky are pushing it. I think they go too far. That’s it. That doesn’t make me a racist any more than it makes you the man in the moon. And expressing my opinion does not make me an idiot.
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Nice piece of revisionism.

What actually happened was you accused Sky of only choosing the game to suit their agenda. Paul pointed out that Sky had already chosen the game well before any of this controversy arose, and you were just stirring things up. You didn't like being proved wrong, and tried to deflect this by focusing on scheduling issues, when the point was clearly Sky were not trying to pursue a controversial race agenda.

You've put together a long reply in the post above, which comes across as quite different from your previous posts on the subject. Now, if that's how you really feel then I respect your point of view. I don't agree with it but I can empathise.
 
Stuart_C said:
I often wonder how many people have changed their outlook on racism after seeing their team/heroes/fav players etc taking the knee.

I'd guess at very few.
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Maybe not grown men in the stands (certainly not those booing).

But maybe kids in the playground, who may be imitating the gesture (even jokingly).
 
sunshine said:
Maybe not grown men in the stands (certainly not those booing).

But maybe kids in the playground, who may be imitating the gesture (even jokingly).
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It's definitely making its way down to school age children even if they aren't grasping the seriousness of the situation. We were in the car yesterday and older Colch Jnr (aged 11) decided to tell us a "joke" that he'd heard at school. It was.....

"I punched a white guy in the face and got arrested for assault. When I got let out I punched a black guy in the face. I got arrested for impersonating a police officer".

Myself and Mrs Colch obviously had a chat with him (and his younger brother) about the background to the "joke" and hopefully through education of the upcoming generations this will become a non-issue.
 
sunshine said:
Nice piece of revisionism.

What actually happened was you accused Sky of only choosing the game to suit their agenda. Paul pointed out that Sky had already chosen the game well before any of this controversy arose, and you were just stirring things up. You didn't like being proved wrong, and tried to deflect this by focusing on scheduling issues, when the point was clearly Sky were not trying to pursue a controversial race agenda.

You've put together a long reply in the post above, which comes across as quite different from your previous posts on the subject. Now, if that's how you really feel then I respect your point of view. I don't agree with it but I can empathise.
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I haven’t revised anything. Remember, I am the poster. I knew what I was posting.
I did post that I thought Sky may have had an ulterior motive for showing the game. They didn’t and I have accepted my error on numerous occasions now. This was, to me very much a secondary issue and only part of what I perceive as OTT coverage by Sky on taking the knee. After all they have never taken such an interest in “Kick It Out” and other initiatives. Furthermore my view on Sky’s involvement as a whole was secondary to taking the knee not working, being bad for football and failing to deliver on its aims. The first line of my post actually said that I thought a new gesture was needed.
I wasn’t stirring things up. Indeed I tried to end the discussion on numerous occasions.
I was happy to be corrected on the scheduling issue. I would have preferred a more polite correction and I do think if my mistake was highlighted in more respectful terms, none of this would have happened.

I do believe Sky are trying to persue an agenda. Whether it’s controversial is a matter of opinion.
The debate certainly became confused and there were some misunderstandings mainly caused by people rushing to judgement and assuming that because I was critical of the gesture and Sky I was defending racism.
My view and position haven’t altered and I have changed nothing. In the rush to condemn me for daring to offer an opinion that differs even slightly from yours, you and others simply didn’t see the main points I was making. You chose to jump on the bandwagon over the Sky issue and failed to see we only had a different view on how to achieve the same thing.

In reality, the situation surrounding my post escalated quickly because it is an emotive subject and some chose to react too harshly and in far too critical terms right from the start. I responded in kind and I regret this. Such is the forum. Far be it from me to lecture others on this because I am as bad as anyone, but if we had all conversed more politely it’s doubtful any of this would have happened and the misunderstandings would likely have been avoided.
If I may say so, I would respectfully suggest reading the rules of the forum. Criticising the poster using insults is not allowed and sooner or later it’s going to get you an infraction or worse. I am not being a knob about this. It’s just the way it is.

Other than that I think i we are all clear on how we all think. My views certainly are very clear. I am very happy to read alternative views but as far as my original post is concerned, it’s now time to allow the debate to move on.
 
ColchesterFC said:
It's definitely making its way down to school age children even if they aren't grasping the seriousness of the situation. We were in the car yesterday and older Colch Jnr (aged 11) decided to tell us a "joke" that he'd heard at school. It was.....

"I punched a white guy in the face and got arrested for assault. When I got let out I punched a black guy in the face. I got arrested for impersonating a police officer".

Myself and Mrs Colch obviously had a chat with him (and his younger brother) about the background to the "joke" and hopefully through education of the upcoming generations this will become a non-issue.
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Lad obviously never saw the contrast in Police tactics dealing with the BLM protests (dancing, taking a knee, letting the mob run wild) compared to the “we do not consent” protests (baton charges, multiple arrests and mounted police to respond "swiftly" to breaches of the coronavirus regulations)
 
Stuart_C said:
I often wonder how many people have changed their outlook on racism after seeing their team/heroes/fav players etc taking the knee.

I'd guess at very few.
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You may be right, not many would have changed their views... so the question is ... how many have spoken about it or acknowledged that racism exists... if 1 family acknowledged it, then job done
 
Stuart_C said:
I often wonder how many people have changed their outlook on racism after seeing their team/heroes/fav players etc taking the knee.

I'd guess at very few.
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Well the likes of (many) Millwall fans are not likely to change their attitudes, but that's the entire isue/problem! imo! And I'm not too sure many of their traditional metal-worker rivals whose team (but not attitudes) I support are all that different!

It's something that has certainly raised awareness of the issues, so no bad thing imo, but i'd like to think there may come a time when such action is not required!
 
sunshine said:
No, definitely not. That's a very blinkered view that shows a staggering lack of awareness.

It is a sports channel, but sport has been central in many cultural and political movements down the years. Amazing moments but also tragedies. During the Hillsborough disaster, do you think MOTD should have focused on the football only and ignored the disaster occurring in the stands?

The broadcaster has a duty to address the wider context of what is going on.
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Completely different situation as it was an event that happened at a sports event (and in the UK).

However, I can't recall MOTD discussing the politics behind policing policies etc. Today the politics, originating from an non sporting event in the US is becoming as much of the focus of Sky's sports coverage as what (else) happens on the pitch after the initial ritual.
 
Good to see that Kick it Out has finally got some financial backing. (Pardon my ignorance) but has KIO done much other than a token day or a ‘reaction quote’ to a journalist after a nasty incident
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55872681

It seems over the last week or so a number of Man Utd players have been subjected to Racist abuse on Twitter

Firstly the players have all said that the recent movement has given them the belief that they can tackle the abusers and stand up to them

But when will the likes of Twitter , Instagram etc do more to tackle these incidents - it seems it’s too easy to create anonymous accounts just so that abuse can be posted
 
The recent racist abuse directed towards Marcus Rashford and Reece James on social media this last week has been despicable, especially as these two young men are tremendous role models with their work for children and the underprivileged outside of football.

Tackling racism in sport - particularly football - is still the biggest challenge in this country. As a young lad going to Chelsea in the late 80s, some of the abuse directed towards our own black players was horrific, never mind opposition black players (John Barnes immediately springs to mind as arguably the best player - of any colour - at the time).

Fortunately a lot has changed at Chelsea over the years, and for the good. Having a very rich, Jewish, owner has helped immensely as we've brought in a significant number of black players that have been instrumental in our success.

Yes some of the idiots from the 70s and 80s are still around and are visible (unfortunately they've bred ☹️) but in my opinion the vast majority of our support thankfully see our players as 'blue' and nothing else.

As to the 'Kick It Out' and 'Black Lives Matter' campaigns, I personally think they've done some good, but taking the knee I'm not too sure. Is a very worthy gesture, but are we at the stage where people are just thinking "just get on with the game - bored of this now". May well be different if fans were in the stadium and they could be asked to support the gesture as well by keeping silent or clapping, however the incident at Millwall showed that probably isn't feasible.

Will be interested to know what other countries have done to tackle racism at sports events and whether these have been successful; and as such whether there are things to learn from them.
 
PieMan said:
As to the 'Kick It Out' and 'Black Lives Matter' campaigns, I personally think they've done some good, but taking the knee I'm not too sure. Is a very worthy gesture, but are we at the stage where people are just thinking "just get on with the game - bored of this now". May well be different if fans were in the stadium and they could be asked to support the gesture as well by keeping silent or clapping, however the incident at Millwall showed that probably isn't feasible.
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Whilst there's this........ & 'Let's keep politics out of sport'....... then IMO we know the problem is still there.

Bored with this now!!!....... shakes head in dispair. :mad:
 
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