Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
If you had flattened my daffodils you would of had my boot up your Arse. If I could of found you camouflaged in the cabbage patch.
If you had flattened my daffodils you would of had my boot up your Arse. If I could of found you camouflaged in the cabbage patch.
williamalex1
Money List Winner
Should pilots that fire missiles and drop bombs that kill innocent people, be prosecuted too ?
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Loving to hear the responses on that one. Coz it is a valid point
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
If they went off mission, ignored orders and deliberately targeted them, then yes they should.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
If that pilot isn’t following orders and deliberately targets innocents then yes he will be
If there is innocent lives from an authorised strike Which has been covered by law then the collateral damages are covered
The finer details of both incidents will provide the difference
There will always been lots of emotions when a serviceman is charged for crime committed in conflict - media campaigns etc tug on the heart strings etc But as long as that servicemen has carried out his job within the laws laid down in conflict then they are free from prosecution.
A message to the British Government from an ordinary veteran soldier.
When I served in the Brigade of Guards from 1968 to 1973. I saw terrible atrocities during the four tours I did in my service in Northern Ireland on Operation Banner. Whilst in the province I witnessed the aftermath of IRA execution squads, tar and feathering’s, knee capping's. I spent months, day in, day out, patrolling bandit area's not knowing what was waiting for me around every corner or from a window down the street. I witnessed men, women and children being blown to pieces just because they were deemed by the IRA, to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, an enemy of the cause or of Ireland. I was involved in the big gun battle with the IRA at Flax Street Mill/Divis Flats, Belfast. I’ve been shot at, blown up, spat at, bricks thrown at me, petrol bombed and I also lost goods friends.
In 1972 I was at the Oxford Street Bus Depot bomb when it exploded. There but for the grace of the heavy brick wall of the bus depot, I wouldn't be here today, as not one minutes before it exploded I was standing right next to the car bomb. In the aftermath, I had to picked up the remains of two really good friends who were blown to smithereens by the IRA on that 'Bloody Friday.' The only way I could recognise one of them was from his radio, as it was only he and I who carried radio’s and I could see the wires embedded and sticking out of his chest. His face was devoid of all recognition as a human being, let alone a friend. I, with others, picked him up to put him on a stretcher and his innards fell out of his back. I remember, as a young twenty three year old man, witnessing a Fireman using a bucket and shovel to clean his innards up off the road. The other friend killed in the same bomb was our young RCT driver, he literally had his head blown off. He was just eighteen years of age, it was his nineteenth birthday the following day. Believe me, these nightmares do not leave you; ever.
My last act in the province was also in 1972, when I myself was wounded whilst on patrol in the Markets area of Belfast. One day it was a Friday, the next it was Sunday and I was in the Military Wing of Musgrave Hospital, Belfast. When almost recovered I was returned to B.F.P.O. Germany to be confronted by my young wife as to why I didn't duck! Remember Musgrave Hospital? The very IRA you pardoned, bombed it in 1991 killing two soldiers. They bombed a 'hospital' for Gods sake, what sort of people have you pardoned? Even the Nazi's didn't deliberately bomb hospitals during WWII. I, with thousands of other’s you sent to the ‘war’ went through hell at times. My trauma counselling at the time and ever since consisted of. "Are you okay mate?" I, like all the others who suffered, just picked myself up and got on with it, because that's what we did back then, we got on with it. I served and suffered for my Queen and Country but I was still proud to do so and I still am. Well for my Queen and my Country anyway, but not for my Government. We were sent to ‘war’ because of politics and sick idealism. I was fortunate, unlike some of my brother’s in arms, I didn't lose a limb or had any lasting physical disabled just a scar from a head wound and the scar within as well. But here, 50 year on, I still suffer nightmares at times but I, as my generation do, we just get on with it. With no help I might add, from you, my duly elected caring Government. We could have won that ‘war’ if you had let us, but you tied our hands behind our back’s because you, as Politician's, were frightened of criticism because that’s all you had to face, critacism not bullets.
All British Government's of their day, refused to call it a war because it held different political and legal implications, than if a war had been declared. Because of this failure to class it as a war we, the British soldier, had to play by different rules than that we were trained for in total warfare. For a start, even although fired upon first, we had to shout a warning to the aggressor before returning fire. You even issued us with a speech on a card for us to read and shout to our enemy first. I never knew one soldier who had time to shout a warning when being fired upon first, it was kill or be killed. This is one of the many things YOUR legal teams and prosecutors who, and lets face it, their only purpose is not for justice but to see how much money they can make out of the process. You have them investigating old soldiers now in our 70’s for such incomprehensible things such as. “Did you shout a warning before you opened fire?†The IRA did not apply these same rule when they opening fire, they didn’t have too, they were lawless.. If a member of the IRA was arrested he/she had to be treated under the law as if he were just a normal criminal and they had ALL the privileges when arrested as if he were just a shoplifter, free lawler’s, legal advice, privileges etc. The IRA on the other hand, when they kidnapped a British Soldier, they were ALL brutally executed after being torture and violent beaten beforehand. Not ONE British Soldier taken alive by the IRA was returned alive, if returned at all. It was not only British Soldiers that faced this fate, but all those taken by The IRA. Remember ‘The Missing?’ The IRA did not take prisoners. If you had classed it as a war, some IRA members could have been tried under the Geneva Convention for being war criminals and subsequently executed. Remember that.
Now, in 2018, what makes this harder to deal with is we have a spineless Government, who not only gave these murdering IRA terrorist thugs a full pardon, we are now unable to prosecute the same murderers because they got a 'letter of pardon' signed by you, OUR Government. So no matter what evidence is gleaned from the past, now or the future, they can never be prosecuted for their war crimes. But you, this same Government, now deem it necessary to start investigations into the very soldiers, that you sent to 'war' for 'war crimes' on the very IRA murderers and their supporters that you pardoned, just because they say we committed offences and because, ‘THEY’ want their day of ‘justice’. What do the IRA know about justice? This whole mockery of so called justice is a disgrace and you should hang your heads in shame for allowing it. It is time for the Prime Minister of this Country that WE served, to put an end to this witch-hunt and also pardon ALL British soldiers from any prosecution just like you did for the IRA. The consequences of failing to do so, will be dire, not only for the soldiers accused but for the sitting Government of the day. I, and the thousands of other British veterans who served in Operation Banner want OUR 'letter of pardon' also.
Peter D Bruffell
(Ex. L/Sgt Welsh Guards)
1968 -1973
I personally did 4 tours in total, although 1 was a skeleton tour, those that have served will understand that term and I didn’t receive an extra bar for it, although because of the nature of it, it was almost has hostile in a short period than the worst ful tour I did in 81 that covered the hunger strikers.
You’re entitled to your opinions, and it’s easy from the comfort of your chairs to say we should follow this that and the other codes, and yes we were the best trained in the world, and still are today, but unless you’ve ever walked in our shoes down streets when you could never see or recognise your enemy, because they were callous, cowardly terrorist murderers (and still are), and then found yourself under life threatening contact, then come back to the table and tell me how you’d react.
I carried like everyone a ‘yellow card’, it was the rules for our engagement in NI, it was slightly amended at times for various tours around the world, but in short, if anyone was committing a life threatening act towards yourself or [anyone] you were their to protect or had and was fleeing the scene after committing a life threatening act, I would give a warning (if appropriate) and then open fire, and before anyone asks the question, you should never shoot to wound!
It’s an emotive subject for me so I’m not getting into convos on it, I’ve said my piece, it’s obvious where I stand, so that’s it for me, the end.
When I served in the Brigade of Guards from 1968 to 1973. I saw terrible atrocities during the four tours I did in my service in Northern Ireland on Operation Banner. Whilst in the province I witnessed the aftermath of IRA execution squads, tar and feathering’s, knee capping's. I spent months, day in, day out, patrolling bandit area's not knowing what was waiting for me around every corner or from a window down the street. I witnessed men, women and children being blown to pieces just because they were deemed by the IRA, to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, an enemy of the cause or of Ireland. I was involved in the big gun battle with the IRA at Flax Street Mill/Divis Flats, Belfast. I’ve been shot at, blown up, spat at, bricks thrown at me, petrol bombed and I also lost goods friends.
In 1972 I was at the Oxford Street Bus Depot bomb when it exploded. There but for the grace of the heavy brick wall of the bus depot, I wouldn't be here today, as not one minutes before it exploded I was standing right next to the car bomb. In the aftermath, I had to picked up the remains of two really good friends who were blown to smithereens by the IRA on that 'Bloody Friday.' The only way I could recognise one of them was from his radio, as it was only he and I who carried radio’s and I could see the wires embedded and sticking out of his chest. His face was devoid of all recognition as a human being, let alone a friend. I, with others, picked him up to put him on a stretcher and his innards fell out of his back. I remember, as a young twenty three year old man, witnessing a Fireman using a bucket and shovel to clean his innards up off the road. The other friend killed in the same bomb was our young RCT driver, he literally had his head blown off. He was just eighteen years of age, it was his nineteenth birthday the following day. Believe me, these nightmares do not leave you; ever.
My last act in the province was also in 1972, when I myself was wounded whilst on patrol in the Markets area of Belfast. One day it was a Friday, the next it was Sunday and I was in the Military Wing of Musgrave Hospital, Belfast. When almost recovered I was returned to B.F.P.O. Germany to be confronted by my young wife as to why I didn't duck! Remember Musgrave Hospital? The very IRA you pardoned, bombed it in 1991 killing two soldiers. They bombed a 'hospital' for Gods sake, what sort of people have you pardoned? Even the Nazi's didn't deliberately bomb hospitals during WWII. I, with thousands of other’s you sent to the ‘war’ went through hell at times. My trauma counselling at the time and ever since consisted of. "Are you okay mate?" I, like all the others who suffered, just picked myself up and got on with it, because that's what we did back then, we got on with it. I served and suffered for my Queen and Country but I was still proud to do so and I still am. Well for my Queen and my Country anyway, but not for my Government. We were sent to ‘war’ because of politics and sick idealism. I was fortunate, unlike some of my brother’s in arms, I didn't lose a limb or had any lasting physical disabled just a scar from a head wound and the scar within as well. But here, 50 year on, I still suffer nightmares at times but I, as my generation do, we just get on with it. With no help I might add, from you, my duly elected caring Government. We could have won that ‘war’ if you had let us, but you tied our hands behind our back’s because you, as Politician's, were frightened of criticism because that’s all you had to face, critacism not bullets.
All British Government's of their day, refused to call it a war because it held different political and legal implications, than if a war had been declared. Because of this failure to class it as a war we, the British soldier, had to play by different rules than that we were trained for in total warfare. For a start, even although fired upon first, we had to shout a warning to the aggressor before returning fire. You even issued us with a speech on a card for us to read and shout to our enemy first. I never knew one soldier who had time to shout a warning when being fired upon first, it was kill or be killed. This is one of the many things YOUR legal teams and prosecutors who, and lets face it, their only purpose is not for justice but to see how much money they can make out of the process. You have them investigating old soldiers now in our 70’s for such incomprehensible things such as. “Did you shout a warning before you opened fire?†The IRA did not apply these same rule when they opening fire, they didn’t have too, they were lawless.. If a member of the IRA was arrested he/she had to be treated under the law as if he were just a normal criminal and they had ALL the privileges when arrested as if he were just a shoplifter, free lawler’s, legal advice, privileges etc. The IRA on the other hand, when they kidnapped a British Soldier, they were ALL brutally executed after being torture and violent beaten beforehand. Not ONE British Soldier taken alive by the IRA was returned alive, if returned at all. It was not only British Soldiers that faced this fate, but all those taken by The IRA. Remember ‘The Missing?’ The IRA did not take prisoners. If you had classed it as a war, some IRA members could have been tried under the Geneva Convention for being war criminals and subsequently executed. Remember that.
Now, in 2018, what makes this harder to deal with is we have a spineless Government, who not only gave these murdering IRA terrorist thugs a full pardon, we are now unable to prosecute the same murderers because they got a 'letter of pardon' signed by you, OUR Government. So no matter what evidence is gleaned from the past, now or the future, they can never be prosecuted for their war crimes. But you, this same Government, now deem it necessary to start investigations into the very soldiers, that you sent to 'war' for 'war crimes' on the very IRA murderers and their supporters that you pardoned, just because they say we committed offences and because, ‘THEY’ want their day of ‘justice’. What do the IRA know about justice? This whole mockery of so called justice is a disgrace and you should hang your heads in shame for allowing it. It is time for the Prime Minister of this Country that WE served, to put an end to this witch-hunt and also pardon ALL British soldiers from any prosecution just like you did for the IRA. The consequences of failing to do so, will be dire, not only for the soldiers accused but for the sitting Government of the day. I, and the thousands of other British veterans who served in Operation Banner want OUR 'letter of pardon' also.
Peter D Bruffell
(Ex. L/Sgt Welsh Guards)
1968 -1973
I personally did 4 tours in total, although 1 was a skeleton tour, those that have served will understand that term and I didn’t receive an extra bar for it, although because of the nature of it, it was almost has hostile in a short period than the worst ful tour I did in 81 that covered the hunger strikers.
You’re entitled to your opinions, and it’s easy from the comfort of your chairs to say we should follow this that and the other codes, and yes we were the best trained in the world, and still are today, but unless you’ve ever walked in our shoes down streets when you could never see or recognise your enemy, because they were callous, cowardly terrorist murderers (and still are), and then found yourself under life threatening contact, then come back to the table and tell me how you’d react.
I carried like everyone a ‘yellow card’, it was the rules for our engagement in NI, it was slightly amended at times for various tours around the world, but in short, if anyone was committing a life threatening act towards yourself or [anyone] you were their to protect or had and was fleeing the scene after committing a life threatening act, I would give a warning (if appropriate) and then open fire, and before anyone asks the question, you should never shoot to wound!
It’s an emotive subject for me so I’m not getting into convos on it, I’ve said my piece, it’s obvious where I stand, so that’s it for me, the end.
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D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
That letter should be printed on the front page of every newspaper, strong, powerful words.
Thanks for sharing Robin.
Thanks for sharing Robin.
User20205
Money List Winner
I’m no expert, but you put a kid in a dangerous situation with a loaded weapon. There’s a chance he’s gonna use it.
I’m not sure what is to be gained from the prosecution of 1 individual nearly 50 years on. Strikes me as a bit of a witch hunt.
I’m not sure what is to be gained from the prosecution of 1 individual nearly 50 years on. Strikes me as a bit of a witch hunt.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
It's all I have to offer.
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Old Skier
Tour Winner
I was too quick for you in those days.
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Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
Sorry Nick, I have to disagree; it's not a bit of a witch hunt, it's the whole 9 yards of a witch hunt, sanctioned by the unfit and incompetent in Westminster that completely excused the other side.
I'm not suggesting what happened at the time was right, but if we can excuse equally or more barbaric acts in more recent history then surely the same rules should apply to both sides.
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Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Here's a cynical view..
The authorities want to put this whole thing to bed. It's been dragging on for nearly 50 years and they don't want it dragging on for another 50.
It's obvious that there is insufficient evidence to charge the majority of those involved, possibly insufficient evidence to charge any of them.
However, they need to produce closure.
So 1 person is "charged" with the knowledge that they will be acquitted due to insufficient evidence.
That will bring a legal end to the matter.
Everyone moves on.......
If there isn't enough evidence to charge them all you have to ask how can there be enough evidence to charge one..?
The authorities want to put this whole thing to bed. It's been dragging on for nearly 50 years and they don't want it dragging on for another 50.
It's obvious that there is insufficient evidence to charge the majority of those involved, possibly insufficient evidence to charge any of them.
However, they need to produce closure.
So 1 person is "charged" with the knowledge that they will be acquitted due to insufficient evidence.
That will bring a legal end to the matter.
Everyone moves on.......
If there isn't enough evidence to charge them all you have to ask how can there be enough evidence to charge one..?
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
After the last inquiry there were 4 Soldiers (e, f, g & h) who were highlighted over their actions and the report sent to the PSNI to investigate, 2 have since died and the evidence against the other was deemed insufficient. All 4 soldiers at the time gave evidence.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
Fixed that for you Ian.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
The kid was in his early 20's
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
And these days. Father time is catching up on Tash.
User20205
Money List Winner
not sure what your point is?
I just struggle to see how an individual can be singled out when working in a framework provided to him by the U.K. govt. armed troops policing a protest March doesn’t seem a good fit.
Culpability seems to be on both sides. The U.K. govt have admitted responsibility, unfortunately no one on the other side ever will. If the U.K. govt admit responsibility, how can individuals be held accountable?
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Not getting between you and OS, but you have to remember the background to the March, there had been violence prior to this and during both enquiries the IRA admitted to having a sniper there, the sniper himself gave evidence, one of the dead was carrying nail bombs and McGuiness admitted to carrying weapons that day, but denied firing it.
By the time this march came around armed soldiers were already on the streets.
The recent enquiry did ask a lot of questions about the command and control that day.
User20205
Money List Winner
Which all supports the feeling that one individual can’t be held accountable imo
