Signing a scorecard

[nickjdavis]

So, when the round has ended you have checked the scores; how exactly have you certified them?

By not crossing out your pre-signature?

(Dont get me wrong...although I know its fine to sign the card before the round starts...I don't agree with it)

 

[chrisd]

Just so we're clear, what exactly is your method of certification (since you have eschewed the usual action of signing the scorecard)? Also, are the committee aware of this novel method and find it acceptable?

I think I've made it abundantly clear throughout the discussion that I check every score hole by hole, check it again at the end of the round before I hand the card to the player, and that what I do is not breaching any rule of golf. I do not need to make the committee aware of how I choose to do it because I am not doing anything wrong, so I'd be grateful if you'd accept that in "not breaching any rule" I have no any need to report my action or alter it. It's clear that what i do leaves the player with a card that is checked, double checked and signed - and therefore meets the objective required.

I have "certified" it by having agreed everything required, and by handing the player a signed card and I'm pretty sure that I started doing this following advice on here, on a thread about players being disqualified for handing in a card not signed by their marker or themselves.

 

[bobmac]

If you sign your card at the start of the round, what's to stop the person who is marking your card from handing it in without you checking it first?

When you sign your card, you are agreeing that the scores are correct.
How can you do that before you've even started.
If there's a problem, you don't sign it.

 

[Maninblack4612]

As the rules state that the marker and player are certifying the scores, how can this be done before the round. Do it properly after the round and it becomes routine

You certify the score by checking the card & handing it in. We all pre sign, just in case anyone forgets. In 65 years of golf this has never been a problem.

 

[Maninblack4612]

So, when the round has ended you have checked the scores; how exactly have you certified them?

By handing the card to the player it belongs to.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Just so we're clear, what exactly is your method of certification (since you have eschewed the usual action of signing the scorecard)? Also, are the committee aware of this novel method and find it acceptable?

It's not novel, it's pretty widespread. If I hand a card back to the player whose card I've been marking it's only after we have checked the scores. Doing it thr "proper" way someone could easily hand back the card unchecked so, in effect, the signature means nothing.

 

[Maninblack4612]

If you sign your card at the start of the round, what's to stop the person who is marking your card from handing it in without you checking it first?/QUOTE]

Nothing, but, in 65 years of golf, I've never seen this happen. You finish the round, check scores, swap cards & hand them in. The number of people I see being disqualified for not signing cards I think it's a good idea to do this at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Colin L]

If you sign your card at the start of the round, what's to stop the person who is marking your card from handing it in without you checking it first?

When you sign your card, you are agreeing that the scores are correct.
How can you do that before you've even started.
If there's a problem, you don't sign it.

You don't (obviously) hand in your card before you started but what you or your marker put on it before or during your round is immaterial. All that is required is that after the round you return a card with the hole by hole scores certified by you and your marker. The penalty cited is for failing to show that a score is certified by both in whatever way you are required for a particular competition. There is no penalty statement for signing your card before the round is completed, is there? If a signature on a physical card is required and that signature is on the returned card, you have complied with the requirement. You might, stupidly, not even have checked the scores your marker wrote down but because your signature is there you are committed to that score and take the consequences if it turns out to be incorrect. It may not be best practice to sign before you're finished but that's a different story from its being a breach of a rule.

 

[bobmac]

You don't (obviously) hand in your card before you started but what you or your marker put on it before or during your round is immaterial. All that is required is that after the round you return a card with the hole by hole scores certified by you and your marker. The penalty cited is for failing to show that a score is certified in whatever way you are required for a particular competition. There is no penalty statement for signing your card before the round is completed, is there? If a signature on a physical card is required and that signature is on the returned card, you have complied with the requirement. You might, stupidly, not even have checked the scores your marker wrote down but because the signature is there you are committed to that score and take the consequences if it turns out to be incorrect. It may not be best practice to sign before you're finished but that's a different story from its being a breach of a rule.

Please tell me where I said it was a breach of a rule?

 

[Colin L]

Please tell me where I said it was a breach of a rule?

You didn't. It's a general remark in the context of the whole discussion. I've used "you" throughout that post as a general term - much less pretentious and pseudo royal than "one".

 

[chrisd]

If you sign your card at the start of the round, what's to stop the person who is marking your card from handing it in without you checking it first?

When you sign your card, you are agreeing that the scores are correct.
How can you do that before you've even started.
If there's a problem, you don't sign it.

What's to stop them handing the card in unsigned ?

 

[Neilds]

Might just be a case of being pedantic with terminology but when I certified a plane was serviceable and safe to fly (by signing the paperwork) I made sure I checked all the job cards after they had been completed and never before!
certify
verb

UK

/ˈsɜː.tɪ.faɪ/ US

/ˈsɝː.t̬ə.faɪ/

[ I or T ]
to say in a formal or official way, usually in writing, that something is true or correct:

 

[chrisd]

Might just be a case of being pedantic with terminology but when I certified a plane was serviceable and safe to fly (by signing the paperwork) I made sure I checked all the job cards after they had been completed and never before!
certify
verb

UK

/ˈsɜː.tɪ.faɪ/ US

/ˈsɝː.t̬ə.faɪ/

[ I or T ]
to say in a formal or official way, usually in writing, that something is true or correct:

Possibly the repercussions of getting it wrong may just be the reason you do as you do, or of course, it may be a rule where you work !

 

[bobmac]

What's to stop them handing the card in unsigned ?

What would be the point of doing that? An unsigned card wouldn't count whereas a signed card would and if you've already agreed the scores are correct by signing the card, the card counts.
I was taught...
You play the comp, you check your scores and if you agree all is well, then you sign the card.
If you find a discrepancy you don't sign it.
Do what you want but I would never sign a card until I've finished and checked it first.

 

[chrisd]

What would be the point of doing that? An unsigned card wouldn't count whereas a signed card would and if you've already agreed the scores are correct by signing the card, the card counts.
I was taught...
You play the comp, you check your scores and if you agree all is well, then you sign the card.
If you find a discrepancy you don't sign it.
Do what you want but I would never sign a card until I've finished and checked it first.

First - there would be no point

Second - if I find a discrepancy I dont give them the card until its sorted

Third - what you were taught was fine, what I've been taught, or learned, is fine, there is no point in a discussion on it when what we both do is within the rules and we both won't change

 

[bobmac]

First - there would be no point

Second - if I find a discrepancy I dont give them the card until its sorted

You don't have the card, the marker does. He fills out the card signs it and as you have already signed it, hands it in.

 

[Steven Rules]

Does it say in the rules that the act of signing the card is what " certifies " the round

Yes it does. See definition of Scorecard.

the Rules do not specify in any way how certification is done. There is no mention anywhere of signing or of signatures.

Actually the Rules do specify how certification is done and there are a few references to signatures. (e.g. Diagram 3.3b, definition of Scorecard, Committee Procedures 6F(2))

Most importantly in relation to this thread, see definition of Scorecard:


The scorecard may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee that allows:

*The player’s score to be entered for each hole, and

*The marker and the player to certify the scores either by physical signature or by a method of electronic certification approved by the Committee.

The method of certification is either by physical signature or by a method of electronic certification approved by the Committee.

Rules 3.3b(1) and 3.3b(2) require the marker and player to certify the hole scores "when the round has ended". The definitions clearly state that "the method of certification is either by physical signature or a method of electronic certification".

The OP asked if it is:

within the rules for a player to sign their blank scorecard before the round has commenced

It is difficult to see how a scorecard signed before the round commences complies with the requirement to certify the hole scores via physical signature or electronic means when the round has ended.

 

[woofers]

**** I note that Steven Rules has succinctly replied in line with my response below, however as I spent some time composing this I thought I’d post it anyway !

Thank you for those responses to my question, which arose after I was handed a signed, blank scorecard by a player whose scorecard I was to mark in a competition.
This was the first time I can recall this happening to me in over 30 years of playing golf. I was a little unsure of the correctness of this, my first thought was “what have you agreed, by signing?, the scorecard is blank”, but in the interests of expediency, ‘group harmony’, and not wanting to start a discussion in which I wasn’t sure of the facts, I let it go. We played the round, agreed the hole scores and returned the cards.

But it didn’t feel quite right to me, as I tend not to add my signature to any documents, cheques, contracts, scorecards, delivery notes, etc. until I am sure that everything I am signing for is correct, and the signature is usually the last thing that is appended to these items.

Perhaps it is pertinent to the discussion that Rule 3.3b clearly states :
(2) Players Responsibility: Certifying Hole Scores and….
When the round has ended, the player:

• Must certify the holes on the scorecard and…..

and under Definitions:
Scorecard - may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee that allows:

• The marker and the player to certify the scores either by physical signature or by a method of electronic certification approved by the Committee.

So it would seem that as certification is defined as the physical signature, and certification is the players responsibility after the round has ended, signing a scorecard before play isn’t really complying with the rules in my opinion.

But having said all that, it would appear that the practice is acceptable to many, not strictly within the rules and not easily enforceable. (A bit like the way Rule 5.3a is treated).

 

[chrisd]

You don't have the card, the marker does. He fills out the card signs it and as you have already signed it, hands it in.

I was referring to the card I was marking

If we're talking about my card I would clarify scores, as I've always done at the point where we arrive back at the clubhouse. I've never had a situation like you describe and never expect one to arise as the players I play with always check scores at the end of the round.

 

[chrisd]

Yes it does. See definition of Scorecard.


Actually the Rules do specify how certification is done and there are a few references to signatures. (e.g. Diagram 3.3b, definition of Scorecard, Committee Procedures 6F(2))

Most importantly in relation to this thread, see definition of Scorecard:


The scorecard may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee that allows:

*The player’s score to be entered for each hole, and

*The marker and the player to certify the scores either by physical signature or by a method of electronic certification approved by the Committee.

The method of certification is either by physical signature or by a method of electronic certification approved by the Committee.

Rules 3.3b(1) and 3.3b(2) require the marker and player to certify the hole scores "when the round has ended". The definitions clearly state that "the method of certification is either by physical signature or a method of electronic certification".

The OP asked if it is:



It is difficult to see how a scorecard signed before the round commences complies with the requirement to certify the hole scores via physical signature or electronic means when the round has ended.

But the definition of "Scorecard" whilst saying it requires signing doesn't require it to be signed after the round, and when its handed to the player signed, checked, confirmed and attested it is signed.