Should putting only count for 1/2 shot?

[Golfnut1957]

Good morning, more than happy to of put it out there, it's clearly sparked debate, and will try and find the article

Looks like you got you debate after all.

 

[Backache]

Putts are the only shots we play were a meaningful number of them require no skill whatsoever. When you've only a few inches left it doesn't matter whether you're the best putter in the world or a complete beginner.

Very true realistically most two foot putts are made anyway so they don't really distinguish good golfers from bad golfers.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

What a stupid question from the outset.

 

[Swango1980]

Sure, game within a game and all that. I think it is OK as it stands, but it is interesting to consider the effect of a different model.

There is a similar debate possible about rough thickness vs fairway width. Every variation favours some players and disadvantages others.


It used to be that a good putter would beat a long hitter fairly reliably. I am not sure that is the case now. Webb Simpson is the shortest hitter among the top echelon. most of the rest are bombers. Even Morikawa isn't short. Look at Spieth. When his putting went off, he fell off the planet.

I think it does professional golfers a disservice when calling them simply bombers. The ones that are winning also have a fantastic short game. Last few weeks, no one can say Dustin Johnson has an average short game. His putting has been fantastic. McIlroy virtually eliminated himself from contention when he gets frustrated on the greens. And, as you mention, when Spieth lost his touch on greens he fell off the planet. Putting is a massive part of the game. I used to play with a guy from Florida, who played off +3 in Florida. He was biggest hitter I have seen by far in my life, and consistently straight. He won an American Golf king drive comp, and driving a par 4 370 yards or more was realistic, even in winter. He had played on college tour with loads of guys who are now on PGA Tour (he is mid 30's now, so that age group). He was a dream Scramble partner. However, I asked him once how he never made it as a pro, given he'd be right up there with the McIlroy's of this world off the tee. He said it was simple, driving it far is great. But, the guys that make it, from about 120 yards in, when pressure is off, will basically get up and down every time. If you can't do that, then you can pretty much forget it. As fans, we see pros hit it massive distances and are most impressed by that. However, perhaps we fail to appreciate how unbelievable their short game is. After all, most of us will never hit a 350 yard drive, but every now and then we'll luckily hit our ball close from an approach, get up and down from.bunker or sink a 40 foot putt.

A 2 foot putt may require little no skill (tho I've seen them.missed). But, it was the skill of the 40 foot putt before that that meant you added 2 to your score, whereas without that skill it could have cost you 3. Imagine a game without putting. You could play St Andrew's with massive greens. Knock it on green, hole over. Doesn't matter if you knocked your approach to a foot or to 100 feet.

The concept of golf is simple. How many hit of that little ball does it take to get it in the hole. If hitting the ball a long way is all that matters is to hit it a long way, then watch the long drive competitions. I played with a guy once, who hit a decent drive on a short par 4 about 30 yards short of green. He then thinned his next out of bounds. He wasn't bothered because he said he doesn't worry about the boring short game, he just likes to hit it long. Well, his drive was only about 240, so I did think it was a bit of a pointless mindset. But, each to their own I guess

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I think it does professional golfers a disservice when calling them simply bombers. The ones that are winning also have a fantastic short game. Last few weeks, no one can say Dustin Johnson has an average short game. His putting has been fantastic. McIlroy virtually eliminated himself from contention when he gets frustrated on the greens. And, as you mention, when Spieth lost his touch on greens he fell off the planet. Putting is a massive part of the game. I used to play with a guy from Florida, who played off +3 in Florida. He was biggest hitter I have seen by far in my life, and consistently straight. He won an American Golf king drive comp, and driving a par 4 370 yards or more was realistic, even in winter. He had played on college tour with loads of guys who are now on PGA Tour (he is mid 30's now, so that age group). He was a dream Scramble partner. However, I asked him once how he never made it as a pro, given he'd be right up there with the McIlroy's of this world off the tee. He said it was simple, driving it far is great. But, the guys that make it, from about 120 yards in, when pressure is off, will basically get up and down every time. If you can't do that, then you can pretty much forget it. As fans, we see pros hit it massive distances and are most impressed by that. However, perhaps we fail to appreciate how unbelievable their short game is. After all, most of us will never hit a 350 yard drive, but every now and then we'll luckily hit our ball close from an approach, get up and down from.bunker or sink a 40 foot putt.

A 2 foot putt may require little no skill (tho I've seen them.missed). But, it was the skill of the 40 foot putt before that that meant you added 2 to your score, whereas without that skill it could have cost you 3. Imagine a game without putting. You could play St Andrew's with massive greens. Knock it on green, hole over. Doesn't matter if you knocked your approach to a foot or to 100 feet.

The concept of golf is simple. How many hit of that little ball does it take to get it in the hole. If hitting the ball a long way is all that matters is to hit it a long way, then watch the long drive competitions. I played with a guy once, who hit a decent drive on a short par 4 about 30 yards short of green. He then thinned his next out of bounds. He wasn't bothered because he said he doesn't worry about the boring short game, he just likes to hit it long. Well, his drive was only about 240, so I did think it was a bit of a pointless mindset. But, each to their own I guess

Excellent post ?

 

[Dan2501]

It used to be that a good putter would beat a long hitter fairly reliably. I am not sure that is the case now. Webb Simpson is the shortest hitter among the top echelon. most of the rest are bombers. Even Morikawa isn't short. Look at Spieth. When his putting went off, he fell off the planet.

Not that simple really, his game has been all over the place and if anything it's his driving putting him under the most pressure the last 2 seasons. He last won in 2017 - that year he was 2nd SG Total, 44th off the tee, 2nd Approaching the Green, 8th around the green, 48th putting. Very decent all around stats. In 2018 he dropped 30 places in SG total, dropped slightly in driving, dropped to 33rd in Approach, 49th around the greens and 123rd in putting. So that year he was worse across the board and particularly bad putting. That pattern doesn't continue though - in 2019 he was 2nd on tour SG Putting but tee-to-green he dropped to 157th, approaching the green dropped to 145th and off the tee was particularly bad last year ranking him 176th. This year up and down again, putting drops right down again, approach still poor, around the green decent but it's his driving yet again letting him down where he ranks 169th, and it's that that's putting so much pressure on the rest of his game the last 2 seasons. Can't find the fairway and your approach shots are going to be negatively impacted which puts more pressure on the short game and in-turn the putting.

 

[Ethan]

I think it does professional golfers a disservice when calling them simply bombers. The ones that are winning also have a fantastic short game. Last few weeks, no one can say Dustin Johnson has an average short game. His putting has been fantastic. McIlroy virtually eliminated himself from contention when he gets frustrated on the greens. And, as you mention, when Spieth lost his touch on greens he fell off the planet. Putting is a massive part of the game. I used to play with a guy from Florida, who played off +3 in Florida. He was biggest hitter I have seen by far in my life, and consistently straight. He won an American Golf king drive comp, and driving a par 4 370 yards or more was realistic, even in winter. He had played on college tour with loads of guys who are now on PGA Tour (he is mid 30's now, so that age group). He was a dream Scramble partner. However, I asked him once how he never made it as a pro, given he'd be right up there with the McIlroy's of this world off the tee. He said it was simple, driving it far is great. But, the guys that make it, from about 120 yards in, when pressure is off, will basically get up and down every time. If you can't do that, then you can pretty much forget it. As fans, we see pros hit it massive distances and are most impressed by that. However, perhaps we fail to appreciate how unbelievable their short game is. After all, most of us will never hit a 350 yard drive, but every now and then we'll luckily hit our ball close from an approach, get up and down from.bunker or sink a 40 foot putt.

A 2 foot putt may require little no skill (tho I've seen them.missed). But, it was the skill of the 40 foot putt before that that meant you added 2 to your score, whereas without that skill it could have cost you 3. Imagine a game without putting. You could play St Andrew's with massive greens. Knock it on green, hole over. Doesn't matter if you knocked your approach to a foot or to 100 feet.

The concept of golf is simple. How many hit of that little ball does it take to get it in the hole. If hitting the ball a long way is all that matters is to hit it a long way, then watch the long drive competitions. I played with a guy once, who hit a decent drive on a short par 4 about 30 yards short of green. He then thinned his next out of bounds. He wasn't bothered because he said he doesn't worry about the boring short game, he just likes to hit it long. Well, his drive was only about 240, so I did think it was a bit of a pointless mindset. But, each to their own I guess

That is all true, and I have also played with a long hitting PGA Tour pro who also said it was really all about the short game and putting.

I think one of the elements is that when you hit a drive, apart from the wind, there is little that influences the ball but the way you hit it. On a green, there are a lot more variables and random effects in play, so a greater element of chance.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Very true realistically most two foot putts are made anyway so they don't really distinguish good golfers from bad golfers.

A 51:49 split is 'most'... My putting is very variable and there can be days when I miss 'most' <2fts.

 

[Swango1980]

A 51:49 split is 'most'... My putting is very variable and there can be days when I miss 'most' <2fts.

I know. People say 2 foot as if it is a tap in. However, 2 foot is 2 x 30cm rulers. Put 2 of those next to each other and ask yourselves how many you'd miss. I doubt many people would be giving those putts to their opponent in a match I know quite a few people that miss those regularly. They even miss 1 foot putts frequently, especially a little downhiller with a touch of break.

 

[Orikoru]

I know. People say 2 foot as if it is a tap in. However, 2 foot is 2 x 30cm rulers. Put 2 of those next to each other and ask yourselves how many you'd miss. I doubt many people would be giving those putts to their opponent in a match I know quite a few people that miss those regularly. They even miss 1 foot putts frequently, especially a little downhiller with a touch of break.

Two foot is definitely not a tap-in. Especially not with the new lifting devices causing bounce-outs left right and centre now as well. When you can't take the flag out and just knock it in firmly, I think they become a lot more missable.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In matches I usually give putts of about 18" (rarely much more than that) on the first four holes...because most putts of that length on 1-4 are straightforward - but our 5th and 6th greens are really tricky and it is very easy to miss tiddlers. I'm not into giving my opponent any practice of that length until they have to hole a tricky one... If a 18" putt on 1-4 is only 1/2 shot - one on 5 or 6 is 1.5 shots

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Two foot is definitely not a tap-in. Especially not with the new lifting devices causing bounce-outs left right and centre now as well. When you can't take the flag out and just knock it in firmly, I think they become a lot more missable.

Two foot is not a tap in especially with any degree of break and even more so downhill

 

[Grant85]

Interesting point you make here. Not sure if you listen to the Rick Shiels Podcast but on a recent episode, when discussing the new WHS system it sounds as if, in the USA at least, their culture is to give gimmies, so even in comps they can do this! I was sat listening thinking, why not make that global? If the new system is supposed to be a "leveller" surely we should start allowing the classic bin lid gimmie even in stroke play. Food for thought anyway!

I don't listen to it but am aware of the culture in the states around gimmies. Wasn't aware this was being done in comps though - that is dodgy.

As I said, I'm not against it, but it won't happen as some people will take it too far and as others have pointed out, there are those who do miss 2 foot putts and there are obviously certain pin positions that make these putts tougher.

 

[Swango1980]

I don't listen to it but am aware of the culture in the states around gimmies. Wasn't aware this was being done in comps though - that is dodgy.

As I said, I'm not against it, but it won't happen as some people will take it too far and as others have pointed out, there are those who do miss 2 foot putts and there are obviously certain pin positions that make these putts tougher.

Yeah. If something is that close to be an actual gimme, just tap it in. Hardly stressful if it is that easy. If anyone ever gets upset a put hasn't been given, it is usually because they are worried they might actually miss it then. Hence proving why it isn't a gimme.

 

[Grant85]

Yeah. If something is that close to be an actual gimme, just tap it in. Hardly stressful if it is that easy. If anyone ever gets upset a put hasn't been given, it is usually because they are worried they might actually miss it then. Hence proving why it isn't a gimme.

I played with a guy who would pretty much give you anything. As long as you hit a decent putt that got anywhere near the hole, even if it ran 4 foot past. He'd say 'pick it up' and move on. I think he just liked playing at a brisk pace. but it was infuriating as we'd play a sweep and so you'd keep your score. But it was inevitably 2 or 3 better than it might have been because this guy was pretty much only seeing 1 putt per green. Then when it came to a medal you hadn't holed a 3 footer for 2 weeks!

 

[Backache]

A 51:49 split is 'most'... My putting is very variable and there can be days when I miss 'most' <2fts.

I don't know my percentage but this site reckons that someone who shoots around 90 holes 95% of putts from two foot.

https://www.tomfieldinggolf.net/putting-probabilities.html
Missable but you should still hole most even if the stats aren't quite right.

 

[sunshine]

I played with a guy who would pretty much give you anything. As long as you hit a decent putt that got anywhere near the hole, even if it ran 4 foot past. He'd say 'pick it up' and move on. I think he just liked playing at a brisk pace. but it was infuriating as we'd play a sweep and so you'd keep your score. But it was inevitably 2 or 3 better than it might have been because this guy was pretty much only seeing 1 putt per green. Then when it came to a medal you hadn't holed a 3 footer for 2 weeks!

I know a guy like this. I think he does it so that his playing partners are generous in return and he can pick up when he putts it 4 feet past himself.