Shots given changing?

[louise_a]

Is that an improvement? After all, the only difference between that and now is, NOW the effective par used for handicap (SSS) changes, in the future it is the playing handicap that changes. But, assuming that the relative change in handicap with WHS is broadly similar to the relative change in SSS, then I can't see any improvement at all. It would effectively be the same outcome. Only, the perception may improve for some who do not understand how course difficulty is currently taken into account.

You are forgetting that in the new system if you play at another course your playing handicap will adjusted due the slope index ( difficulty ) of that course, unlike now where you play off the same handicap regardless of the course you play

 

[DickInShorts]

Although most of us club golfers won’t necessarily see the benefits of the WHS I think one of the main drivers is the international events organised by the likes of the R & A where with different systems for their entrants has led to issues at the top end of the amateur game.
My wife and I came across this in a fairly low key tournament in Morocco a few years ago where our CONGU handicaps were up against players who used slope and got extra shots from their index and wiped the board taking most of the top places.

 

[rulefan]

You are forgetting that in the new system if you play at another course your playing handicap will adjusted due the slope index ( difficulty ) of that course, unlike now where you play off the same handicap regardless of the course you play

More accurately -
Your Handicap Index (ie base figure) will be adjusted by the Course Rating (ie difficulty for a scratch player and Slope Rating (ie relative difficulty for a player with your handicap) for that specific set of tees on that course ...

However, no one needs to get excited about knowing this as all the information you will need will be displayed on the PSI terminal when you register your entry into the club PSI terminal (or on a board in or near the pro shop)

 

[louise_a]

More accurately -
Your Handicap Index (ie base figure) will be adjusted by the Course Rating (ie difficulty for a scratch player and Slope Rating (ie relative difficulty for a player with your handicap) for that specific set of tees on that course ...

However, no one needs to get excited about knowing this as all the information you will need will be displayed on the PSI terminal when you register your entry into the club PSI terminal (or on a board in or near the pro shop)

Yes, I was trying to keep it simple (if not technically accurate) , I think people are stressing needlessly because as you say everything will be done for you, at worst you may have t0 look up a number on a chart.

 

[duncan mackie]

You are forgetting that in the new system if you play at another course your playing handicap will adjusted due the slope index ( difficulty ) of that course, unlike now where you play off the same handicap regardless of the course you play

Not wanting to digress to much but surely this is also a little misleading.

SSS and CR are basically the same thing; a scratch golfer will be a scratch golfer on any course he plays regardless of its 'difficulty'.

The fundamental change is the bogey index rating or each course, and set of tees, and it's application to the handicap golfer. It's primary impact will be in providing more strokes relative to the scratch golfer for the higher the handicap player in most cases (even after any allowance is factored in for stroke play events).

The consequential impact is that the consideration of par as a target for handicap play will be more relevant than it is in most cases currently under CONGU. Wow.

 

[Swango1980]

You are forgetting that in the new system if you play at another course your playing handicap will adjusted due the slope index ( difficulty ) of that course, unlike now where you play off the same handicap regardless of the course you play

I'm not forgetting that. The point I was making, now the SSS changes (higher relative to par for harder course) to ensure handicaps are fair across members of different clubs. So, now it's your score relative to SSS (or CSS more specifically) that counts when you are comparing your score to handicap. With WHS it is the handicap that changes, not the par of the course (SSS). So, the new system is no improvement, because the relative difference between your score and either CSS(now) or par (then) will be the same.

 

[rulefan]

I'm not forgetting that. The point I was making, now the SSS changes (higher relative to par for harder course) to ensure handicaps are fair across members of different clubs. So, now it's your score relative to SSS (or CSS more specifically) that counts when you are comparing your score to handicap. With WHS it is the handicap that changes, not the par of the course (SSS). So, the new system is no improvement, because the relative difference between your score and either CSS(now) or par (then) will be the same.

Par little if anything to do with SSS (or CR). Evidence seen when rating indicates that many courses retain the same par regardless of which tee is being played from. The length of the hole contributes to the rating but the par is often the same. I have seen course with 100 yard difference: designated by the club as a par 5 (500 yards off the black) when for the yellow tees it should have been a par 4 (400 yards).

The par of a course plays no part in the CR/SSS calculation and never did.

 

[Swango1980]

Par little if anything to do with SSS (or CR). Evidence seen when rating indicates that many courses retain the same par regardless of which tee is being played from. The length of the hole contributes to the rating but the par is often the same. I have seen course with 100 yard difference: designated by the club as a par 5 (500 yards off the black) when for the yellow tees it should have been a par 4 (400 yards).

The par of a course plays no part in the CR/SSS calculation and never did.

I didn't say that.

I was saying that the WHS system of changing a course handicap based on difficulty (and leaving course par alone) is relatively no different to CONGU where the playing handicap stays fixed and it is SSS (or CSS) changes.

So, now for eg, if you want to play to handicap, you can't just say you have done if you score 36 points. Our SSS of yellows is 3 under par, so 39 points is playing to handicap. With WHS, 36 points is laying to handicap, I'll just get less shots on my handicap to get that in comparison to playing off whites.

 

[rulie]

How to make a simple system complicated! I thought I was beginning to understand but this 'explanation' from USGA puts me back to square one!

I see there is an error in the poster from the USGA. In the bottom left it shows a course rating of 71.0 and a par of 71, yet in the top right of drawing (at "any difference") it uses a course rating of 72.0. The math in the drawing works if the course rating is 72.0.

 

[Colin L]

Stroke play.........full handicap
Match play.........3/4 handicap
Easy

WHS recommendations:
Stroke Play 95%
Match Play 100%
Easy

 

[Colin L]

How to make a simple system complicated! I thought I was beginning to understand but this 'explanation' from USGA puts me back to square one!

Totally agree. Graphics should make things clearer and easier to understand, not the reverse. I was appalled when I first saw this one.

 

[louise_a]

I didn't say that.

I was saying that the WHS system of changing a course handicap based on difficulty (and leaving course par alone) is relatively no different to CONGU where the playing handicap stays fixed and it is SSS (or CSS) changes.

So, now for eg, if you want to play to handicap, you can't just say you have done if you score 36 points. Our SSS of yellows is 3 under par, so 39 points is playing to handicap. With WHS, 36 points is laying to handicap, I'll just get less shots on my handicap to get that in comparison to playing off whites.

You do not appear to understand what effect the course/slope rating has on your handicap, your white tees may currently have a SSS of say 70, and other course was a SSS of 70 may well have a different course rating and/or slope rating, so even though the SSS's are currently the same, the chances are your playing handicap will be different when playing the other course

 

[Colin L]

@Swango

I think there are some basic misunderstandings in the way you appear to confuse par and SSS. The par of a course is not the same as its SSS or its CR as you seem to say. The only way in which par affects the calculation of a handicap is that it determines what your net double bogey is on any given hole.

But rather than pick at the details, maybe you should step back and take a broader look.

An initial CONGU handicap is based on the difference between your gross score (adjusted to a maximum net double bogey on any hole) and the SSS.
An initial WHS handicap will be based on the difference between your gross score (adjusted to a maximum net double bogey on any hole) and the CR .
CR and SSS are the same thing. The current SSS of of a course is its CR rounded up or down to a whole number.
So far, no difference,
But then WHS takes a step further. It adjusts the differential between gross adjusted score and CR to the number of strokes you would need on a notional course with a Slope Rating of 113. That calculation gives you this (new to us in CONGU) Handicap Index. Since all golfers' handicap indices relates to the same notional course, they are universalised. Wherever you play, your Handicap Index is comparable to everyone else's and so the Playing Handicaps of everyone on any given course are fairly matched. That is different from the CONGU system and arguably better at putting players on an even footing for a competition on a particular course. I also find the fairness to be transparent and easily comprehended.

A basic purpose of the WHS system is to give you a handicap that is portable and universal.

 

[bobmac]

WHS recommendations:
Stroke Play 95%
Match Play 100%
Easy

Don't forget the rest........
4ball stroke - 85%
4ball match 95%

 

[Swango1980]

@Swango

I think there are some basic misunderstandings in the way you appear to confuse and SSS. The par of a course is not the same as its SSS or its CR as you seem to say. The only way in which par affects the calculation of a handicap is that it determines what your net double bogey is on any given hole.

But rather than pick at the details, maybe you should step back and take a broader look.

An initial CONGU handicap is based on the difference between your gross score (adjusted to a maximum net double bogey on any hole) and the SSS.
An initial WHS handicap will be based on the difference between your gross score (adjusted to a maximum net double bogey on any hole) and the CR .
CR and SSS are the same thing. The current SSS of of a course is its CR rounded up or down to a whole number.
So far, no difference,
But then WHS takes a step further. It adjusts the differential between gross adjusted score and CR to the number of strokes you would need on a notional course with a Slope Rating of 113. That calculation gives you this (new to us in CONGU) Handicap Index. Since all golfers' handicap indices relates to the same notional course, they are universalised. Wherever you play, your Handicap Index is comparable to everyone else's and so the Playing Handicaps of everyone on any given course are fairly matched. That is different from the CONGU system and arguably better at putting players on an even footing for a competition on a particular course. I also find the fairness to be transparent and easily comprehended.

A basic purpose of the WHS system is to give you a handicap that is portable and universal.

So, to be clear:

Previously, with CONGU, many golfers would often complain that, a player from a harder course would have an unfair advantage over a player from an easier course. CONGU said that was untrue, because the harder course would have a higher SSS. So, end result, golfers from any course should fairly be able to compete against each other.

However, it seems to me, that you are now saying that the WHS will allow golfers to be fairly matched. If that is the case, under CONGU are we now being told that the system is UNFAIR to golfers??? If so, is it unfair to golfers at all handicaps, or between golfers with big differences between handicaps?

Hopefully you see my confusion. If the WHS system is fairer, why on earth were we told CONGU was fair?

 

[rulefan]

So, to be clear:

Previously, with CONGU, many golfers would often complain that, a player from a harder course would have an unfair advantage over a player from an easier course. CONGU said that was untrue, because the harder course would have a higher SSS. So, end result, golfers from any course should fairly be able to compete against each other.

However, it seems to me, that you are now saying that the WHS will allow golfers to be fairly matched. If that is the case, under CONGU are we now being told that the system is UNFAIR to golfers??? If so, is it unfair to golfers at all handicaps, or between golfers with big differences between handicaps?

Hopefully you see my confusion. If the WHS system is fairer, why on earth were we told CONGU was fair?

Because they thought the 'ratchet' reduction values compensated. ie lower handicaps are pulled more severely. They were wrong of course because the then English Golf Union did not see the value of Slope. And slope is the key to equality. (Not necessarily the whole answer though)

 

[Colin L]

.

Don't forget the rest........
4ball stroke - 85%
4ball match 95%

I'll guarantee not to forget about any of the 23 different formats which have a recommended allowance. Just don't expect me to remember what the actual allowances are. without looking them up.
In fact, in one instance - Pinehurst/Chapman - I'd have to look up what the format is in the first place.

But we're used to handicap allowances as it is. I'm not getting your point.

 

[Swango1980]

Because they thought the 'ratchet' reduction values compensated. ie lower handicaps are pulled more severely. They were wrong of course because the then English Golf Union did not see the value of Slope. And slope is the key to equality. (Not necessarily the whole answer though)

OK, thanks

That is a big insight to me, but useful. So, the WHS will actually be fairer than CONGU. So, next question, who will this added fairness benefit? Will it be of added assistance to low handicappers, high handicapper, members of tricky courses, members of easy courses, etc (i.e. who is currently getting a slightly less than fair deal under CONGU)?

I'm finding this useful, because until I attend the WHS workshop, and they reveal everything in its entirety, I'm using this forum to get a head start on what I may need to know. After all, as handicap secretary, I'm frequently having members ask about the new system, and although I can give the general basics, it would be useful if I could try and sell the added fairness to certain people (hoping that it doesn't disillusion the golfers that may be currently getting a slightly better deal at the moment of course)