Scottish independence

[FairwayDodger]

I'd ridicule them too, mibbe even a wee bit more than those who are taking a Michael Jackson 'we are the world' approach to it.

We can make a better day, adi. Just you and me.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Adi, if you want change, you've only really got to look at the man in the mirror.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Of course I mean what I've written.

You chose to remove yourself from Scotland, for whatever reason, whether it's financial,personal or legal...you made that choice.When you made that choice, you presumably registered to vote/pay tax/use the services of the region/country you decided offered you superior options to those in Scotland.Those were all decisions that required a degree of thought, I'd guess.

So now the people who have decided to stay in Scotland (or move to Scotland) are being asked how the country they live in will be ran.It's only fair that those people (and not adios Andy) decide one way or another.

you can have an opinion on Scottish affairs on an online forum,pub,golf course or work place, but becuase all of those places are not in Scotland ( because of a choice you made) your opinion, when it comes to it, is invalid/unimportant/irrelevant

you must see this as correct?

Am I missing something here.

First I chose to 'remove' myself from Scotland because there was no work for me - I got on my bike to get work rather than sit on my backside drawing the dole.

In the past I have argued why I thought it appropriate that I shold get a vote but I have already said that I now absolutely accept (with disappointment) that I will not get a vote in the referendum. I also noted that both the Labour Westminster MP and the Labour Holyrood MSP for my HOME constituency both agreed that it was disappinting for non-dom Scots - putting it down to an SNP ploy to exclude non-dom Scots as we would be more likely to vote NO.

I don't at all understand or accept for one moment your argument about my opinion. Are you telling me that as I am non-domicile and don't get a vote then I should keep my nose out of such Scottish affairs as the referendum that aren't my business - and hence that I should not come to Scotland and campaign for a YES or NO.

Are you seriously telling me that if I thought that a vote YES or NO might significantly affect in a negative way the wellbeing of my mother, brother, sister, nephews, nieces etc in Scotland then that's just tough - it's got nothing to do with me. So I should keep my anglo-centric and tainted thoughts to myself and in England where they belong? I am not welcome to go to Scotland to campaign on the referendum as I do not live there?

REALLY? Because that is how I read your views and I would get an infraction and probably an outright ban if I expressed what I thought of such views and anyone expressing them.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Post of the week.

You are kidding...I believe

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yeah, I'm philosophically opposed to it. Couldn't care less if independence makes me better or worse off economically.

On that all I'd say is that Scotland would be moving from a semi-detached position within the EU - being attached to the EU only through Westminster and even then attached in the manner Westminster decides (and that could soon become DE-tached) to an position directly attached to the EU in a manner decided by Holyrood.

So it strikes me that as your philosophy is to be part of the greater whole, then the best chance of that being the case would be in the context of an independent Scotland as a member of the EU. By staying in the UK you risk being a part of a fragmentation as England detaches the UK from the EU.

 

[FairwayDodger]

On that all I'd say is that Scotland would be moving from a semi-detached position within the EU - being attached to the EU only through Westminster and even then attached in the manner Westminster decides (and that could soon become DE-tached) to an position directly attached to the EU in a manner decided by Holyrood.

So it strikes me that as your philosophy is to be part of the greater whole, then the best chance of that being the case would be in the context of an independent Scotland as a member of the EU. By staying in the UK you risk being a part of a fragmentation as England detaches the UK from the EU.

That indeed is a risk but its by no means certain that the uk will quit Europe. I'd go so far as to say its unlikely although, what would I know, politicians frequently surprise me.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That indeed is a risk but its by no means certain that the uk will quit Europe. I'd go so far as to say its unlikely although, what would I know, politicians frequently surprise me.

You need to find out about what folk in England think about staying in the EU and the support for UKIP...

If Scotland stays in the union and the UK does leave the EU then you are in a pickle - philosophically - as you have effectively voted for the scenario that has ended up with exactly the opposite effect to what your sole intention in voting was to achieve. At least were you to vote YES then you are voting for the position most likely to have Scotland in Europe/EU in the long term.

So if 'in EU or out of EU' in the long term was my sole criteria for how I voted, I know how I'd vote.

 

[FairwayDodger]

But if Scotland stays in the union and the UK does leave the EU then you are in a pickle - philosophically - as you have effectively voted for the scenario that has ended up with exactly the opposite effect to what your sole intention in voting was to achieve. At least were you to vote YES then you are voting for the position most likely to have Scotland in Europe/EU in the long term.

So if 'in EU or out of EU' in the long term was my sole criteria for how I voted, I know how I'd vote.

You can't vote against your principles in one referendum just because you fear the next one might go against you. I'll vote Scotland to stay in uk then uk to stay in Europe. Hopefully, both will go my way.

Anyway, one school of thought is that a newly independent Scotland would find itself outside the eu anyway. Impossible of course for the ordinary voter to know the truth of that against the smokescreen put up by both side in the debate.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Am I missing something here.

First I chose to 'remove' myself from Scotland because there was no work for me - I got on my bike to get work rather than sit on my backside drawing the dole.

I also noted that both the Labour Westminster MP and the Labour Holyrood MSP for my HOME constituency both agreed that it was disappinting for non-dom Scots - putting it down to an SNP ploy to exclude non-dom Scots as we would be more likely to vote NO.

I don't at all understand or accept for one moment your argument about my opinion. Are you telling me that as I am non-domicile and don't get a vote then I should keep my nose out of such Scottish affairs as the referendum that aren't my business - and hence that I should not come to Scotland and campaign for a YES or NO.

Are you seriously telling me that if I thought that a vote YES or NO might significantly affect in a negative way the wellbeing of my mother, brother, sister, nephews, nieces etc in Scotland then that's just tough - it's got nothing to do with me. So I should keep my anglo-centric and tainted thoughts to myself and in England where they belong? I am not welcome to go to Scotland to campaign on the referendum as I do not live there?

REALLY? Because that is how I read your views and I would get an infraction and probably an outright ban if I expressed what I thought of such views and anyone expressing them.

No, you seem to have caught the gist of it.

Less of the Tebbit-ism's please, this is a family forum

There are no MSP's in England so this cannot be possible.And anything that annoys the utter bawbags at New Labour must be a good thing for every man,woman and child on this wonderful island of ours

Tough if you don't accept it, but those are the facts, based on a decision YOU made.Come and visit us anytime you like, campaign for either side.Bit weird if you ask me, considering you can't vote, but each to their own in gods own country.

Calm down,dear...between this and Syria your blood pressure must be a touch high.But, aye, it's got nowt to do with you now.You can be upset by things that affect your family, but because you cannot affect the political process, all you can do is sit back, watch and try not to combust.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I always smile when I hear that Scotland is being propped up by English funding.

Population of Scotland 5.25 million
Population of England 4 million [that is those who are unemployed or claiming jobseekers allowance.
[Then factor in the SE England housing benefit of £85 trillion]






I was joking about the last bit!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You can't vote against your principles in one referendum just because you fear the next one might go against you. I'll vote Scotland to stay in uk then uk to stay in Europe. Hopefully, both will go my way.

Anyway, one school of thought is that a newly independent Scotland would find itself outside the eu anyway. Impossible of course for the ordinary voter to know the truth of that against the smokescreen put up by both side in the debate.

Except the Scottish voice in a UK referendum is noisy but of little consequence if English sentiment continues on the route it is currently going in respect of the EU.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I wonder if in the next election UKIP will gain enough seats to form a coalition with the Tories?
That should set the cat amongst the pigeons.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No, you seem to have caught the gist of it.

Less of the Tebbit-ism's please, this is a family forum

All right then - I got off my backside to get work and that meant I had to travel to England - and I went by train - that OK?

There are no MSP's in England so this cannot be possible.And anything that annoys the utter bawbags at New Labour must be a good thing for every man,woman and child on this wonderful island of ours

I didn't say there were. You have made an incorrect assumption. My HOME constinuencies as far as I am concerned are in the south side of Glasgow. I stay in England.

Tough if you don't accept it, but those are the facts, based on a decision YOU made.Come and visit us anytime you like, campaign for either side.Bit weird if you ask me, considering you can't vote, but each to their own in gods own country.

LOL You honestly think that if I thought something might be detrimental to my family in Scotland that I'd just say - ah well - nothing I can do about it? Well you might - I wouldn't. The facts are that I can 't vote. That does not mean I can't argiue or indeed campaign one way or the other - either on here or in Glasgow. And btw I would bother because I care about Scotland - maybe I shouldn't given some of the idiots who live there and the views that some hold. And pray tell where is gods own country?

Calm down,dear...between this and Syria your blood pressure must be a touch high.But, aye, it's got nowt to do with you now.You can be upset by things that affect your family, but because you cannot affect the political process, all you can do is sit back, watch and try not to combust.

I can affect it by more than those who have a vote but can't be bothered. You also have no idea whether I'd vote YES or NO in the referendum had I a vote or who I'd campaign for - I suspect your assumption is quite wrong. And you actually have no idea of whether I'd support a strike against Syrian regime given the conditions and evidence that would be presented as justification.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

I can affect it by more than those who have a vote but can't be bothered. You also have no idea whether I'd vote YES or NO in the referendum had I a vote or who I'd campaign for - I suspect your assumption is quite wrong. And you actually have no idea of whether I'd support a strike against Syrian regime given the conditions and evidence that would be presented as justification.

I'd take a wild guess at you voting yes.But you cannae so I don't really care.And my wee nod to Syria was over the way you totally misread the entire political nuance that everyone else seemed to get on that particular thread.It almost gave you an aneurysm by the looks of things.

You really are a drama queen.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'd take a wild guess at you voting yes.But you cannae so I don't really care.And my wee nod to Syria was over the way you totally misread the entire political nuance that everyone else seemed to get on that particular thread.It almost gave you an aneurysm by the looks of things.

You really are a drama queen.

I did not misread the situation. My point about Syria was that I thought it wrong for parliament to completely rule out military intervention regardless of any evidence that might be provided. At no point did I advocate intervention based upon the evidence that was available a few weeks ago. In fact I actually considered rebels forces being the source of the chemical weapn attack.

..and you should actually try reading and understanding what folks view is rather than make logical leaps.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

I did not misread the situation. My point about Syria was that I thought it wrong for parliament to completely rule out military intervention regardless of any evidence that might be provided. At no point did I advocate intervention based upon the evidence that was available a few weeks ago. In fact I actually considered rebels forces being the source of the chemical weapn attack.

..and you should actually try reading and understanding what folks view is rather than make logical leaps.

Bloody hell you're still doing it.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Gentleman , maybe this is one you just agree to disagree on

Either way can we calm down please

Thanks

 

[Foxholer]

FWIW.

My view is that those born in Scotland and resident in UK should be eligible to vote.

I suspect eligibility criteria was based at least as much on perceived voting patterns as any other reasons.

Btw. I agree with SiLH wrt Syria. Sensible to not approve military action at the time, but daft to exclude anything in the future.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

FWIW.

My view is that those born in Scotland and resident in UK should be eligible to vote.

I suspect eligibility criteria was based at least as much on perceived voting patterns as any other reasons.

Btw. I agree with SiLH wrt Syria. Sensible to not approve military action at the time, but daft to exclude anything in the future.

Thanks Foxholer - nice to know I'm not alone, mad or a blood-thirsty warmonger.

I don't quite get what @Adi2Dassler is on about with the referendum thing. All I'm saying is that though I do not have a vote (and I now accept that as being the case and that cannot be changed) - I have an opinion and can express it if I want. And also if I wanted I would go to Scotland and campaign for YES or BT - and I have every right to do that. That's it. That's all I'm saying. And if anyone is swayed one way or the other by my arguments - then I have done my bit to affect the outcome almost as much as if I had had a vote.

Anyway - I can't actually say anymore than that - other than to reiterate what I started out by asking (neutrally I thought).

> I am not hearing very much clarity from the BT campaign on 'what happens next' towards any form of devo-max following a NO vote
> How Scottish interests and views on non-devolved matters would be protected and promoted given a most likely lessened Scottish constuiency MP presence in Wesminster.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Woman on Radio Scotland this morning says

When I listen to the No's, it makes me want to vote Yes and when I listen to the Yes's I want to vote NO.

Politicians ehh!