Scotland Debate

[SocketRocket]

820,000 Scots living in poverty.
16% of our population
110,000 up on last year.

Just saying.

So what is this poverty you speak of? Is it where people are confined to the poor house, are they starving and dressed in rags. Do the parents give up their mobile phone contracts, Sky TV, cigarettes, booze, cars and holidays to put food on the table for their kids.

Or! as I suspect it is a form of relative poverty that is someone living on a percentage of the average wage or claiming certain benefits. I think using data like people using food banks is spurious due to the fact that if you offer free food the people will take it and that would have been true at any time in our history. I do understand that some people are poor due to such things as mental health issues but there are also the many cases where for example women have many children by different Fathers and the Fathers pay nothing toward the children's upkeep. There are also many feckless people who would (as i mentioned previously) prefer to smoke and drink than feed and clothe the kids.

I think your simple statistic paints no picture of reality.

Just Saying!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

110,000 up on last year tends to negate your tired old arguments.

More to do with 0% contracts and employers paying the minimum possible wage.
Bedroom tax had little effect on Scotland as the local authorities could see that it was a 'Yes Minister' solution that would cost more long term.

 

[NWJocko]

110,000 up on last year tends to negate your tired old arguments.

More to do with 0% contracts and employers paying the minimum possible wage.
Bedroom tax had little effect on Scotland as the local authorities could see that it was a 'Yes Minister' solution that would cost more long term.

Out of interest do you know the numbers for England?

 

[c1973]

So what is this poverty you speak of? Is it where people are confined to the poor house, are they starving and dressed in rags. Do the parents give up their mobile phone contracts, Sky TV, cigarettes, booze, cars and holidays to put food on the table for their kids.

Or! as I suspect it is a form of relative poverty that is someone living on a percentage of the average wage or claiming certain benefits. I think using data like people using food banks is spurious due to the fact that if you offer free food the people will take it and that would have been true at any time in our history. I do understand that some people are poor due to such things as mental health issues but there are also the many cases where for example women have many children by different Fathers and the Fathers pay nothing toward the children's upkeep. There are also many feckless people who would (as i mentioned previously) prefer to smoke and drink than feed and clothe the kids.

I think your simple statistic paints no picture of reality.

Just Saying!

Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable to me that people think this way.

Would you queue up for food handouts unless you really needed to? I know I wouldn't. Not everybody on the bread line is there due to mental health issues (as you put it).

More stereotyping in that post than I've had the misfortune to hear in a long time.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable to me that people think this way.

Would you queue up for food handouts unless you really needed to? I know I wouldn't. Not everybody on the bread line is there due to mental health issues (as you put it).

More stereotyping in that post than I've had the misfortune to hear in a long time.

Could have been worse, he failed to mention single mums getting free council houses

 

[NWJocko]

820,000 Scots living in poverty.
16% of our population
110,000 up on last year.

Just saying.

Just looked myself (assuming the same source, going by your numbers I think so).

Are you trying to make the point that Scotland is worse than the rest of the uk?

If so, I guess you missed the c. 22% in England, c.25% in Wales and c 20% in Norn Iron?!

Not sure if you were trying to make out that Scotland was somehow suffering more than the rest of the UK though?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Just looked myself (assuming the same source, going by your numbers I think so).

Are you trying to make the point that Scotland is worse than the rest of the uk?

If so, I guess you missed the c. 22% in England, c.25% in Wales and c 20% in Norn Iron?!

Not sure if you were trying to make out that Scotland was somehow suffering more than the rest of the UK though?

I was only concerned about Scotland as I am unhappy that the gap between rich and poor seems to be widening rapidly.
Scotland's figures are quite disgraceful.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I was only concerned about Scotland as I am unhappy that the gap between rich and poor seems to be widening rapidly.Scotland's figures are quite disgraceful.

In other words you didn't bother reading the figures in full.Half the story seems to be the norm with the Yes campaign.

 

[NWJocko]

I was only concerned about Scotland as I am unhappy that the gap between rich and poor seems to be widening rapidly.
Scotland's figures are quite disgraceful.

ALL of the figures are disgraceful. And, to be fair, Scotland's are actually better than other areas in the UK.

How does Salmond propose to narrow the gap and provide a more equal distribution of wealth? He isn't really a staunch socialist is he (although I accept many Scots are, more so than the SNP at least).

 

[Doon frae Troon]

In other words you didn't bother reading the figures in full.Half the story seems to be the norm with the Yes campaign.

Sorry to bust your bubble but I got the figures from BBC Scotland text. As it was a Scottish service they did not show the figures from rUK.

I would imagine that rUK figures have been skewed by the bedroom tax. It seems to have put a lot of poor people into greater debt.

 

[Val]

I was only concerned about Scotland as I am unhappy that the gap between rich and poor seems to be widening rapidly.
Scotland's figures are quite disgraceful.

It's happening world wide not just the UK, non story as normal

 

[SocketRocket]

Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable to me that people think this way.

Would you queue up for food handouts unless you really needed to? I know I wouldn't. Not everybody on the bread line is there due to mental health issues (as you put it).

More stereotyping in that post than I've had the misfortune to hear in a long time.

I didnt say everyone on the breadline has mental health issues. Did I?

You and I may not queue up for food handouts but it would be rather naive to think some dont take advantage of them. I think its unbelievable that people cant see that there is a fair amount of abuse with welfare systems.

 

[SocketRocket]

Could have been worse, he failed to mention single mums getting free council houses

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

How does Salmond propose to narrow the gap and provide a more equal distribution of wealth? He isn't really a staunch socialist is he (although I accept many Scots are, more so than the SNP at least).

Who cares about Salmond?That's very short sighted and a problem that seems to pervade The UK.Independence for me is about shaping a country, not for today or the next couple of years, but for 100's of years going forward.Being a responsible country able to take their own decisions about how to point our society in the direction the majority want to point it in....something, that within the UK with Westminster and the city of London being the be all and end all ( no matter what Osbourne says about HS3 or Milliband about regional assemblies, thats all bollox) is currently not possible

Folk should move on from Salmond, it's been totally played out by unionists as the reason we should vote No.I mean seriously, you expect folk to decide how to vote because of Alex Salmond?

 

[c1973]

Who cares about Salmond?That's very short sighted and a problem that seems to pervade The UK.Independence for me is about shaping a country, not for today or the next couple of years, but for 100's of years going forward.Being a responsible country able to take their own decisions about how to point our society in the direction the majority want to point it in....something, that within the UK with Westminster and the city of London being the be all and end all ( no matter what Osbourne says about HS3 or Milliband about regional assemblies, thats all bollox) is currently not possible

Folk should move on from Salmond, it's been totally played out by unionists as the reason we should vote No.I mean seriously, you expect folk to decide how to vote because of Alex Salmond?

Agree with what you say regards Salmond. It might not have formed part of the debate had he and his SNP cohorts not tried to make it a choice between 'your choice of government or the Torys', obviously the No campaign would flip it back and play off any dislike of Salmonds megalomaniac tendencies in running Scotland.

Unfortunately that ship has long sailed and people on both sides of the debate will be influenced by short term issues.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

ALL of the figures are disgraceful. And, to be fair, Scotland's are actually better than other areas in the UK.

How does Salmond propose to narrow the gap and provide a more equal distribution of wealth? He isn't really a staunch socialist is he (although I accept many Scots are, more so than the SNP at least).

Have you thought for a moment that after a Yes vote Salmond may not be leading the majority party in Scotland.
Loads of traditional Labour supporters have switched to the SNP, they may change their minds after independence.

 

[NWJocko]

I did realise after posting I shouldn't have put the onus on Salmond as it would, rightly, get this response!

However, the question still stands, how do you think an Independent Scotland will achieve a better wealth distribution and "narrow the gap"?

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Agree with what you say regards Salmond. It might not have formed part of the debate had he and his SNP cohorts not tried to make it a choice between 'your choice of government or the Torys', obviously the No campaign would flip it back and play off any dislike of Salmonds megalomaniac tendencies in running Scotland.

Unfortunately that ship has long sailed and people on both sides of the debate will be influenced by short term issues.

There is a clear distinction to be drawn between using Alex Salmond and The Conservative party. One man or a Political Party with a clear philosophy. Salmond is tomorrows chippy wrapper, the Conservative Party are not...they'll b around for a long time, and if recent results are to be used as a pointer, they're going further right than centre to reflect the desires of the majoity who vote in England.I'm happy to have a debate about SNP vs Conservative, that's fair enough, but one guy vs a political philosophy is nonsense.

fwiw The SNP is a dead duck if we vote yes.They'll win the first election handsomely then the fighting will start.Scotland will become Nationalists vs Scottish Labour vs Scottish Conservative vs Green vs Socialist ...and only the Green party and Socialist parties will be able to call themselves centre left.

However, the question still stands, how do you think an Independent Scotland will achieve a better wealth distribution and "narrow the gap"?

No matter what anyone says, Scotland will be a prosperous country if we vote yes.Only the daftest would disagree.To what extent is the interesting question.

So we have a pot of money, raised in the traditional way of taxation etc.That won't change.Then the choice is how does the elected lot spend it?Where do we prioritise?We need to build roads, do we make them payage?We need to have some sort of army, how big and how much do we spend on it?

I'm a massive fan of the mondragon way of doing things, with some tweaks to fit in with Scotland.I think 1/3 ownership models are essential to rebuilding Scotland.Govt/private/workers all working together, all with equal shares in the company.Retooling instead of call centre.Small,specialised industries.Simplifying the tax code so it's not 3 foot deep and stopping tax avoidance that has become prevelant in The UK and accepted by Westminster.Want to turn a profit in Scotland?Pay your taxes.If not, see ya later, someone else will.

Scotlands oil will eventually run out...no one really knows when or whether there's another big lot in the clyde basin.But the there is billions of money in decommissioning rigs.Billions.Become a world leader in that field too.Why not?Someone has to and Aberdeen is perfectly placed.Start building social housing on a massive scale, but underpin social housing with jobs specifically for those who live nearby.Offer incentives to companies to build factories beside these houses.

Limit the number of university places each year.Create apprenticeship colleges instead.We don't need 20,000 kids with English Lit degrees, we need kids with skills too.

Now I know alot of folk think the same about England, but lets face it, the priorities for both major parties in England revolve around The City of London, The UN security Council, The Military/Monetary (Gill-Scott Heron) big business,HS2/olympic games vanity projects and the simple truth is that's never going to change, so as much as my heart goes out to those south of Gretna who think the same, the only way you're gonna live in that kind of society is to move to an indy Scotland.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I did realise after posting I shouldn't have put the onus on Salmond as it would, rightly, get this response!

However, the question still stands, how do you think an Independent Scotland will achieve a better wealth distribution and "narrow the gap"?

I think the answer was in my question.
End 0-4 hour contracts and pay a living wage instead of a minimum one.
Probably also look at the tax system but that is a bit beyond my ken.

 

[c1973]

There is a clear distinction to be drawn between using Alex Salmond and The Conservative party. One man or a Political Party with a clear philosophy. Salmond is tomorrows chippy wrapper, the Conservative Party are not...they'll b around for a long time, and if recent results are to be used as a pointer, they're going further right than centre to reflect the desires of the majoity who vote in England.I'm happy to have a debate about SNP vs Conservative, that's fair enough, but one guy vs a political philosophy is nonsense.

fwiw The SNP is a dead duck if we vote yes.They'll win the first election handsomely then the fighting will start.Scotland will become Nationalists vs Scottish Labour vs Scottish Conservative vs Green vs Socialist ...and only the Green party and Socialist parties will be able to call themselves centre left.



No matter what anyone says, Scotland will be a prosperous country if we vote yes.Only the daftest would disagree.To what extent is the interesting question.

So we have a pot of money, raised in the traditional way of taxation etc.That won't change.Then the choice is how does the elected lot spend it?Where do we prioritise?We need to build roads, do we make them payage?We need to have some sort of army, how big and how much do we spend on it?

I'm a massive fan of the mondragon way of doing things, with some tweaks to fit in with Scotland.I think 1/3 ownership models are essential to rebuilding Scotland.Govt/private/workers all working together, all with equal shares in the company.Retooling instead of call centre.Small,specialised industries.Simplifying the tax code so it's not 3 foot deep and stopping tax avoidance that has become prevelant in The UK and accepted by Westminster.Want to turn a profit in Scotland?Pay your taxes.If not, see ya later, someone else will.

Scotlands oil will eventually run out...no one really knows when or whether there's another big lot in the clyde basin.But the there is billions of money in decommissioning rigs.Billions.Become a world leader in that field too.Why not?Someone has to and Aberdeen is perfectly placed.Start building social housing on a massive scale, but underpin social housing with jobs specifically for those who live nearby.Offer incentives to companies to build factories beside these houses.

Limit the number of university places each year.Create apprenticeship colleges instead.We don't need 20,000 kids with English Lit degrees, we need kids with skills too.

Now I know alot of folk think the same about England, but lets face it, the priorities for both major parties in England revolve around The City of London, The UN security Council, The Military/Monetary (Gill-Scott Heron) big business,HS2/olympic games vanity projects and the simple truth is that's never going to change, so as much as my heart goes out to those south of Gretna who think the same, the only way you're gonna live in that kind of society is to move to an indy Scotland.

The point I was trying to make (not very well tbf) was the No campaign may not have trivialized the debate into a short term 'don't vote for him' if he/they hadn't went down the 'you'll always be run by torys' route first.

In laymans terms I was kind of saying 'aye, but they started it!'.

Rightly or wrongly (wrong imo) this debate was always going to get dragged down to a base level, we all knew that (or should have), unfortunately it has also been dragged down to short term thinking too (Yes campaign biggest culprits imo). Mark my words, there are plenty up here who will be swayed by the impending reruns of Braveheart and that's a sorry indicator of how base this debate has become in places. Never underestimate the publics propensity for stupidity!

You'll note that I did say I agreed with what you said about Salmond btw.