Scotland Debate

[NWJocko]

There is a clear distinction to be drawn between using Alex Salmond and The Conservative party. One man or a Political Party with a clear philosophy. Salmond is tomorrows chippy wrapper, the Conservative Party are not...they'll b around for a long time, and if recent results are to be used as a pointer, they're going further right than centre to reflect the desires of the majoity who vote in England.I'm happy to have a debate about SNP vs Conservative, that's fair enough, but one guy vs a political philosophy is nonsense.

fwiw The SNP is a dead duck if we vote yes.They'll win the first election handsomely then the fighting will start.Scotland will become Nationalists vs Scottish Labour vs Scottish Conservative vs Green vs Socialist ...and only the Green party and Socialist parties will be able to call themselves centre left.



No matter what anyone says, Scotland will be a prosperous country if we vote yes.Only the daftest would disagree.To what extent is the interesting question.

So we have a pot of money, raised in the traditional way of taxation etc.That won't change.Then the choice is how does the elected lot spend it?Where do we prioritise?We need to build roads, do we make them payage?We need to have some sort of army, how big and how much do we spend on it?

I'm a massive fan of the mondragon way of doing things, with some tweaks to fit in with Scotland.I think 1/3 ownership models are essential to rebuilding Scotland.Govt/private/workers all working together, all with equal shares in the company.Retooling instead of call centre.Small,specialised industries.Simplifying the tax code so it's not 3 foot deep and stopping tax avoidance that has become prevelant in The UK and accepted by Westminster.Want to turn a profit in Scotland?Pay your taxes.If not, see ya later, someone else will.

Scotlands oil will eventually run out...no one really knows when or whether there's another big lot in the clyde basin.But the there is billions of money in decommissioning rigs.Billions.Become a world leader in that field too.Why not?Someone has to and Aberdeen is perfectly placed.Start building social housing on a massive scale, but underpin social housing with jobs specifically for those who live nearby.Offer incentives to companies to build factories beside these houses.

Limit the number of university places each year.Create apprenticeship colleges instead.We don't need 20,000 kids with English Lit degrees, we need kids with skills too.

Now I know alot of folk think the same about England, but lets face it, the priorities for both major parties in England revolve around The City of London, The UN security Council, The Military/Monetary (Gill-Scott Heron) big business,HS2/olympic games vanity projects and the simple truth is that's never going to change, so as much as my heart goes out to those south of Gretna who think the same, the only way you're gonna live in that kind of society is to move to an indy Scotland.

Good response, thanks. I'm genuinely interested in how Scotlands "lot" would/could be improved post indpendence, not attempting to argue a Yes point of view.

I just hope that whoever ends up in power can introduce/effect these changes in the event of a Yes. My perception is that the debate hasn't given e population at large this sort of picture in terms of what the nation could look like after a Yes therefore will there be the push for yes and/or the push from the electorate for these changes in the event of independence? Equally true of the No campaign in terms of lack of direction also, hence the debate being conducted at the most basic levels sadly.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Good post Adi.
Thank you for adding so much to this thread. I would imagine you have dispelled more than a few myths about life in Scotland.

I see Lord McConnel of Glenscorrodale has pressed for the idea of an independent Scotland within the UK.
Not sure how that would work.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Now I know alot of folk think the same about England, but lets face it, the priorities for both major parties in England revolve around The City of London, The UN security Council, The Military/Monetary (Gill-Scott Heron) big business,HS2/olympic games vanity projects and the simple truth is that's never going to change, so as much as my heart goes out to those south of Gretna who think the same, the only way you're gonna live in that kind of society is to move to an indy Scotland.

Don't tell me that you think that, politically, Westminster (the UK parties) has, to satisfy the demands of a constituency of voters in England, been moving and is continuing to move away from the broad feelings of the Scottish electorate. Not something I'd dare suggest as I just don't have the evidence to support that view - so whether it is perception or truth I don;t know. However clearly any such perceived move away could be one reason that some see for voting YES.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Good post Adi.
Thank you for adding so much to this thread. I would imagine you have dispelled more than a few myths about life in Scotland.

I see Lord McConnel of Glenscorrodale has pressed for the idea of an independent Scotland within the UK.
Not sure how that would work.

Nae bother, although this is just my opinion based on what I think I know.I could be wrong

At the end of last year I wrote a letter to Jack McConnell, his minion replied with the opening line that my refusal to refer to him as Lord didn't go down particularily well and that we aren't all Jock Tamsons bairns and that my request for him ( and Henry McLeish) to come out in favour of Independence wisnae goany happen laddie ( I'm still holding out for Henry to say aye)

Still bends my mind that Labour politicians can find it in their heart to accept peerages...traitors to their party imo.

Anyway, to put some more flesh on what I think could be done on a large scale in Scotland ( but not England)

Mondragon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

Mittlestand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand

The philosophies held within these two strands 'stolen' from the Basques and Germans could be the start of something really quite exciting in Scotland.The perfect opportunity presented itself recently when the guy whos name escapes me threaten to close the whole sheebang @ Grangemouth unless he got his way.The Scottish Govt should have called his bluff, gave him his solitary £ back and made it a co-operative, invested govt money in changing it to diesel and sold 1/3 to a private equity company, kept 1/3 and given 1/3 to the workers.

Hesseltine recently admitted to stopping oil/gas drilling in West Scotland to allow nuclear subs safe passage to the North Atlantic.Removal of these wmds and the opening up of those fields safely protects any jobs potentially lost by coulport/faslane and maybe even rosyth losing out on RN ships.Might even increase work forces?

Realise this is far fetched, but it got to be better than the current acceptance of foodbanks and zero hour contracts, £130Billion nuclear vanity projects or trains we'll never see in Scotland?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Realise this is far fetched, but it got to be better than the current acceptance of foodbanks and zero hour contracts, £130Billion nuclear vanity projects or trains we'll never see in Scotland?

The far-fetched part of your proposition is,sadly, your faith in your fellow man, Scottish or otherwise. Read George Orwell.

And is the present a good time to be switching a plant to diesel production when demand for that fuel has peaked and, in some areas is now falling.

Workers co-operatives are a fine ideal but in practice the likelihood of government, workers and private equity happily and profitably co-existing is about on a par with the chances of England winning the next World Cup.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Nae bother, although this is just my opinion based on what I think I know.I could be wrong

At the end of last year I wrote a letter to Jack McConnell, his minion replied with the opening line that my refusal to refer to him as Lord didn't go down particularily well and that we aren't all Jock Tamsons bairns and that my request for him ( and Henry McLeish) to come out in favour of Independence wisnae goany happen laddie ( I'm still holding out for Henry to say aye)

Still bends my mind that Labour politicians can find it in their heart to accept peerages...traitors to their party imo.

Anyway, to put some more flesh on what I think could be done on a large scale in Scotland ( but not England)

Mondragon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

Mittlestand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand

The philosophies held within these two strands 'stolen' from the Basques and Germans could be the start of something really quite exciting in Scotland.The perfect opportunity presented itself recently when the guy whos name escapes me threaten to close the whole sheebang @ Grangemouth unless he got his way.The Scottish Govt should have called his bluff, gave him his solitary £ back and made it a co-operative, invested govt money in changing it to diesel and sold 1/3 to a private equity company, kept 1/3 and given 1/3 to the workers.

Hesseltine recently admitted to stopping oil/gas drilling in West Scotland to allow nuclear subs safe passage to the North Atlantic.Removal of these wmds and the opening up of those fields safely protects any jobs potentially lost by coulport/faslane and maybe even rosyth losing out on RN ships.Might even increase work forces?

Realise this is far fetched, but it got to be better than the current acceptance of foodbanks and zero hour contracts, £130Billion nuclear vanity projects or trains we'll never see in Scotland?

Any thoughts on the 'Common Weal' and if could have any place in shaping a future Scotland

http://reidfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/The-Common-Weal.pdf

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Any thoughts on the 'Common Weal' and if could have any place in shaping a future Scotland

http://reidfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/The-Common-Weal.pdf

I donate money to the jimmy Reid Foundation and the common weal, it's terrific.Growing up in Scotland I was a disciple of Reid.Folk like him,Sillars,Harvie & Margo are at the very heart of who I want directing Scotland.

 

[SocketRocket]

The far-fetched part of your proposition is,sadly, your faith in your fellow man, Scottish or otherwise. Read George Orwell.

And is the present a good time to be switching a plant to diesel production when demand for that fuel has peaked and, in some areas is now falling.

Workers co-operatives are a fine ideal but in practice the likelihood of government, workers and private equity happily and profitably co-existing is about on a par with the chances of England winning the next World Cup.

Good post.

Workers cooperatives have never been successful and I find it hard to see people/organisations wanting to invest their children's inheritance into such schemes. If you take a look at world history all attempts to move away from natural market forces always fail. A typical example of this is the USSR and the next will be the EU. In credit to China they seem to have realised this and exposed their market to free enterprise.

 

[c1973]

Good post.

Workers cooperatives have never been successful and I find it hard to see people/organisations wanting to invest their children's inheritance into such schemes. If you take a look at world history all attempts to move away from natural market forces always fail. A typical example of this is the USSR and the next will be the EU. In credit to China they seem to have realised this and exposed their market to free enterprise.

Are taxpayer (workers) funded government bailouts part of natural market forces?

If natural market forces had been allowed to take place in this country and others then I would suggest the vast majority of us would be well buggered!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Are taxpayer (workers) funded government bailouts part of natural market forces?

If natural market forces had been allowed to take place in this country and others then I would suggest the vast majority of us would be well buggered!

Absolutely agree. The bank bail outs were a result of the failure of successive governments to adequately regulate the bankers and the realisation that, as you state so eloquently, we would have all been well and truly buggered if they had been left to their natural fate.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I remember reading somewhere that under Thatchers reign the UK was observing all of the principles of Karl Marx except state owned banking.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I remember reading somewhere that under Thatchers reign the UK was observing all of the principles of Karl Marx except state owned banking.

The problem pre-dates even Mrs T.

The influence of bankers upon the highest levels of politics existed at least since the 18th Century.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Good post.

Workers cooperatives have never been successful and I find it hard to see people/organisations wanting to invest their children's inheritance into such schemes. If you take a look at world history all attempts to move away from natural market forces always fail. A typical example of this is the USSR and the next will be the EU. In credit to China they seem to have realised this and exposed their market to free enterprise.

John Lewis/Waitrose works well enough, as does Mondragon per my wiki link further up the page.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

John Lewis/Waitrose works well enough, as does Mondragon per my wiki link further up the page.

And your wiki link also refers to Mondragon exploiting workers. Wouldn't have thought that you, of all people, would want to cite them as a good example.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

And your wiki link also refers to Mondragon exploiting workers. Wouldn't have thought that you, of all people, would want to cite them as a good example.

Really?I've just skim-read it and can't see any ref to exploitation? I used the wiki link for ease btw, I hadn't read it prior to posting as I was aware of it already...can you point me in the direction of the exploitation please mate?

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Really?I've just skim-read it and can't see any ref to exploitation? I used the wiki link for ease btw, I hadn't read it prior to posting as I was aware of it already...can you point me in the direction of the exploitation please mate?

Quote from Noam Chomsky, in the "reactions" part.

 

[SocketRocket]

John Lewis/Waitrose works well enough, as does Mondragon per my wiki link further up the page.

John Lewis/Waitrose is employee owned due to the beneficiary of John Lewis, it has no public funding and does share profit with its workforce. It is managed the same way as any other similar company and the employees have no say in who manages them or how they do it. You would not notice anything different to any other supermarket.

I dont believe it is a parallel to any other workers cooperative. As I said earlier, these always fail.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

And your wiki link also refers to Mondragon exploiting workers. Wouldn't have thought that you, of all people, would want to cite them as a good example.

Quote from Noam Chomsky, in the "reactions" part.

Don't think I'm equipped to tackle Chomsky on any topic 'cept maybe Hibs! Value his opinion though, especially given his stance on the referendum

I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but it does show, flaws and all, that there is an alternative to full public or full private ownership.And I'm not looking for things to be ran not for profit,either.And I'd hazard a guess that the worker exploitation levelled at Mondragon is lower than that of say, Unilever or Nike?

I did look about a bit as there was nothing specific NC refers too...

http://www.cooperativeconsult.com/blog/?p=490

I accept that there is no perfect solution, but I think the system offered by the mix of worker/govt/private sector offers the best solution for creating jobs,empowering workers,making money,creating taxation and being fair(er)

I would point out, my idea is based on creating a better working/living environment for those less well off.I don't consider myself to be one of them and know I'm in a fortunate position, relatively speaking.I'd hazard a guess that anyone looking at this thread,during their lunch break or after work is also not part of my target audience.

Independence for Scotland won't change my life, or my lifestyle more to the point, and again, I doubt it would change anyones on here either...those with regular access to the internet and who then make the choice to browse a golf forum are, I'm gonna hazard a guess, on the whole doing OK.I'm keen for those in Possil or Stepps, Niddrie or Pilton to be given the opportunity to be part of something that they currently can't be.Something like Mondragon looks like a good idea.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I donate money to the jimmy Reid Foundation and the common weal, it's terrific.Growing up in Scotland I was a disciple of Reid.Folk like him,Sillars,Harvie & Margo are at the very heart of who I want directing Scotland.

...my father talked in glowing terms of what Jimmy Reid, Jimmy Airlie, Sammy Gilmore and Sammy Barr did around the UCS work-in. Right or wrong they campaigned very strongly for their colleagues an families. And Margo - the debate is surely so much less for her absence.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Independence for Scotland won't change my life, or my lifestyle more to the point, and again, I doubt it would change anyones on here either...those with regular access to the internet and who then make the choice to browse a golf forum are, I'm gonna hazard a guess, on the whole doing OK.I'm keen for those in Possil or Stepps, Niddrie or Pilton to be given the opportunity to be part of something that they currently can't be.Something like Mondragon looks like a good idea.

Cannot disagree with your aims and ideals.

But I remain an old Orwellian sceptic on the ability of many of us to live within a Socialist (utopian?) state.