Scotland Debate

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Finally!

An admission rather than the claptrap previously heard about weighing up things.

All that remains now is for similar honesty from your fellow anti- English campaigner, DfT.

That has been the difference on this thread, someone like Adi2dassler who very sincerely and eloquently puts the case for an independent Scotland without feeling the need to constantly snipe at England and the English and others who have used it as an opportunity to air all their anti-English prejudices.

Not quite sure what I am admitting - and I have absolutely no idea at all why you think I am anti-English - in fact I am quite the opposite.

From mid-late 70s to mid-80s I voted SNP. When I reflect on why I voted SNP I come up with some good reasons. And on these if I had a vote as an ex-pat my gut instinct would today have me voting YES.

But I can also see on reflection some ill-informed and poor reasons why I voted for the SNP. And without living in Scotland and the closer understanding that that would give me of the general economic climate and feeling amongst Scots voters etc I am not at all sure that I would actually vote YES. I still hear too much drivel coming from north of the border about England, the English and Westminster - and that suggests to me that many Scots are - like in part I was - ill-informed. And that worries me. And the more rubbish I hear the more I think a NO might be better.

And so when I say that some part of me actually hopes the vote is YES that is as much as anything based upon the negativity and whinging that I fear will go on and on following a NO. It is not a good reason for a YES - but in many ways I just would like Scotland to get on with looking after themselves if it is so bleeding hard and painful to be part of the UK.

Is that honest enough?

 

[c1973]

This is possible, but only if you let it happen.I'm of the opinion that this is an opportunity to create a new direction instead of the acceptance that we continue along the same road or replace like with like.I think your opinion is very negative, very pessimistic and dare I say it, very old school Scottish.Lets not allow things to keep on going the same way, lets atke the opportunity to reshape Scotland

Adi, not so long ago I would have typed your response myself. I wish I could believe the ordinary people had the power to stop it happening, but they don't. Look at the public consultations we have up here, they pay lip service and then do what they want anyway regardless.

You say pessimistic, you may well be correct, but I would say it was realistic. The guy in the street won't affect meaningful change, it just will not happen. How do you stop the career politician taking over? It has happened in every single country that I can think of, so why would we be different?

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Adi, not so long ago I would have typed your response myself. I wish I could believe the ordinary people had the power to stop it happening, but they don't. Look at the public consultations we have up here, they pay lip service and then do what they want anyway regardless.

You say pessimistic, you may well be correct, but I would say it was realistic. The guy in the street won't affect meaningful change, it just will not happen. How do you stop the career politician taking over? It has happened in every single country that I can think of, so why would we be different?

The Scottish Parliament is pretty well established already, we're not starting from absolute zero if we vote yes.There are good and bad politicians in place already.Given the quite staggering explosion in involvement in the political process recently I think there's scope to avoid the career politicians.There is also the route of making it law that you can't stand for any party until you've gained some life experience/had an actual job outside politics for a predetermined time.Radical, but that's the opportunity voting yes gives us.

Lets use George Osbourne as a case in point, or most Chancellors in fact.He's got a 2:1 in History.Absolutley zero training/education in economics/accountancy.I find it incredible that anyone, from any party can be in charge of the economic structure of any country without formal training.That applies to John Swinney too.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Another wee thing.I went into Tesco this morning to grab something for my lunch and there was a food bank donation point set up.Spent £15 on stuff for it and never bothered with anything for lunch, felt pretty sick tbh.And yet today The Queen ( who I like and would want to keep as head of state) is just over the water launching a billion £ floating car park that's totally redundant as we can't afford the planes it's designed to carry until 2020 or later.

I find that incredible.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

The Scottish Parliament is pretty well established already, we're not starting from absolute zero if we vote yes.There are good and bad politicians in place already.Given the quite staggering explosion in involvement in the political process recently I think there's scope to avoid the career politicians.There is also the route of making it law that you can't stand for any party until you've gained some life experience/had an actual job outside politics for a predetermined time.Radical, but that's the opportunity voting yes gives us.

Lets use George Osbourne as a case in point, or most Chancellors in fact.He's got a 2:1 in History.Absolutley zero training/education in economics/accountancy.I find it incredible that anyone, from any party can be in charge of the economic structure of any country without formal training.That applies to John Swinney too.

And that is why it is, and always has been, unelected Senior Civil Servants who run our countries.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Interesting point by the journalist on Question Time last night.

'We vote for our MP's but we don't choose them. They are selected by the local political parties in that area, and that needs to change.'

Mickey....I am married to an English wife with two English daughters. Not so much anti English more pro equality.
Perhaps you would like to comment on the many anti Scottish posts early on in this thread from south of the border.
They seem to be not so common now as folk are seeing a more honest picture.

 

[c1973]

The Scottish Parliament is pretty well established already, we're not starting from absolute zero if we vote yes.There are good and bad politicians in place already.Given the quite staggering explosion in involvement in the political process recently I think there's scope to avoid the career politicians.There is also the route of making it law that you can't stand for any party until you've gained some life experience/had an actual job outside politics for a predetermined time.Radical, but that's the opportunity voting yes gives us.

Lets use George Osbourne as a case in point, or most Chancellors in fact.He's got a 2:1 in History.Absolutley zero training/education in economics/accountancy.I find it incredible that anyone, from any party can be in charge of the economic structure of any country without formal training.That applies to John Swinney too.

Agree with the second paragraph.

As for the first? I don't doubt the sincerity of your ideals in making it law that you had to work x amount of years and its probably something where we broadly agree, but, unfortunately if you want to be in Europe you can't do that, age discrimination being covered in European law (I believe). The parliament is reasonably established I suppose, but is still a bairn in the grand scheme of things. The career politicians that will eventually attend are still in learning at the moment imo, they will materialise and there will be some in their already. Party politics will run the parliament and have the say (not the man in the street) as it is done in Westminster although I will concede that the way Holyrood is set up there is more chance of independents getting in which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I've always felt that we would end up with the 2nd rate politicians (it's all relative) that don't cut the mustard for Westminster. Obviously this wouldn't apply to SNP but the other main parties. Nothing to back that up mind you, just a hunch.

 

[c1973]

Another wee thing.I went into Tesco this morning to grab something for my lunch and there was a food bank donation point set up.Spent £15 on stuff for it and never bothered with anything for lunch, felt pretty sick tbh.And yet today The Queen ( who I like and would want to keep as head of state) is just over the water launching a billion £ floating car park that's totally redundant as we can't afford the planes it's designed to carry until 2020 or later.

I find that incredible.

As do I, although the need to create jobs by building things like this needs to be considered.

The whole food bank thing disgusts me. I find it shocking given the relative wealth of our nation we have people struggling to put food on the table.

Don't get me started on the homeless problem either!

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Agree with the second paragraph.

As for the first? I don't doubt the sincerity of your ideals in making it law that you had to work x amount of years and its probably something where we broadly agree, but, unfortunately if you want to be in Europe you can't do that, age discrimination being covered in European law (I believe). The parliament is reasonably established I suppose, but is still a bairn in the grand scheme of things. The career politicians that will eventually attend are still in learning at the moment imo, they will materialise and there will be some in their already. Party politics will run the parliament and have the say (not the man in the street) as it is done in Westminster although I will concede that the way Holyrood is set up there is more chance of independents getting in which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I've always felt that we would end up with the 2nd rate politicians (it's all relative) that don't cut the mustard for Westminster. Obviously this wouldn't apply to SNP but the other main parties. Nothing to back that up mind you, just a hunch.

Hence another benefit to EFTA over EU I've argued on here since the beginning.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

As do I, although the need to create jobs by building things like this needs to be considered.

The whole food bank thing disgusts me. I find it shocking given the relative wealth of our nation we have people struggling to put food on the table.

Don't get me started on the homeless problem either!

The jobs thing is an issue,but I hate the way these skilled guys are being used as a political football just now.There's a graphic showing the number of jobs before the last referendum in shipbuilding and the threat of voting yes.Look at that industry now.

The clyde basin offers an opportunity to retrain those guys.And a study I saw recently suggests the majority of folk employed on Faslane aren't local and head home every weekend.They spend very little time/money in the local community.

 

[c1973]

Hence another benefit to EFTA over EU I've argued on here since the beginning.

A choice which I don't believe is on the table though.

On that point though, surely you're not advocating a form of age discrimination for a parliament that has lowered the voting age temporarily, for a one off, and allowed 16yr olds a say in the referendum; but would disbar them from taking a seat in it?

 

[c1973]

The jobs thing is an issue,but I hate the way these skilled guys are being used as a political football just now.There's a graphic showing the number of jobs before the last referendum in shipbuilding and the threat of voting yes.Look at that industry now.

The clyde basin offers an opportunity to retrain those guys.And a study I saw recently suggests the majority of folk employed on Faslane aren't local and head home every weekend.They spend very little time/money in the local community.

I'm not sure of the facts and figures surrounding faslane etc, but it's a helluva lot of jobs and skillsets that could be lost. The arguments to replace them are (for me) unconvincing.

 

[Old Skier]

There is also the route of making it law that you can't stand for any party until you've gained some life experience/had an actual job outside politics for a predetermined time.Radical, but that's the opportunity voting yes gives us
.

Thats what we would all like to see in the whole of UK with a lot of other caveats as well. this is not a Scottish problem. But as its the polititians that make the rules, if you honestly think that voting yes would change the selection process you are going to be disappointed me feels.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Interesting point by the journalist on Question Time last night.

'We vote for our MP's but we don't choose them. They are selected by the local political parties in that area, and that needs to change.'

Mickey....I am married to an English wife with two English daughters. Not so much anti English more pro equality.
Perhaps you would like to comment on the many anti Scottish posts early on in this thread from south of the border.
They seem to be not so common now as folk are seeing a more honest picture.

I too have an English wife and son and daughter both born in Bristol and who consider themselves English - and I am thought of as holding anti-English views? As I said - as much as I might disagree strongly with many of the views I hear expressed here in Surrey - and also about what emanates from Westminster - I don't dislike England and the English. After all I've lived here 30yrs - I must like something about the bleeding people and place.

 

[Old Skier]

I must like something about the bleeding people and place.

Freudian slip. Perhaps its the life style and the fact that the bleeding people dont blame you for all their ills.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Interesting point by the journalist on Question Time last night.

'We vote for our MP's but we don't choose them. They are selected by the local political parties in that area, and that needs to change.'

Mickey....I am married to an English wife with two English daughters. Not so much anti English more pro equality.
Perhaps you would like to comment on the many anti Scottish posts early on in this thread from south of the border.
They seem to be not so common now as folk are seeing a more honest picture.

I would think it is pretty obvious that as I am a proud Brit I am totally opposed to any expression of anti-Scot (or Welsh or Irish) comments .

It may be a paradox but I do feel that Ireland should be a unified, independent state. Scotland, Wales and England have been united as Great Britain for many years and I feel that we would be stronger together.

I do, however, feel that we would all benefit from less centralisation and more devolution to the regions and countries

It is annoying to me when I hear English people all bracketed together as some homogeneous bunch of Home Counties dwelling service industry employees. (Bankers could be another word!!)

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I would think it is pretty obvious that as I am a proud Brit I am totally opposed to any expression of anti-Scot (or Welsh or Irish) comments .

It may be a paradox but I do feel that Ireland should be a unified, independent state. Scotland, Wales and England have been united as Great Britain for many years and I feel that we would be stronger together.

I do, however, feel that we would all benefit from less centralisation and more devolution to the regions and countries

It is annoying to me when I hear English people all bracketed together as some homogeneous bunch of Home Counties dwelling service industry employees. (Bankers could be another word!!)

The North East [Of England] had the chance to become devolved a few years ago but voted by a massive majority to stay ruled by Westminster.

 

[MegaSteve]

Interesting point by the journalist on Question Time last night.

'We vote for our MP's but we don't choose them. They are selected by the local political parties in that area, and that needs to change.'

More worrying were the words of the lovely Diane in the following 'This Week'... Something along the lines of that the Labour group no longer has folk at the top table that know anything of doing a days work... ie With a bit of blood 'n sweat involved...

 

[Deleted member 18588]

The North East [Of England] had the chance to become devolved a few years ago but voted by a massive majority to stay ruled by Westminster.

Hardly surprising.

If that had been the limit of powers proposed for Scottish devolution would the people of Scotland have gone for it.

That proposition was a very cheap attempt by the then Labour Government to sway the regions back towards them but as it only offered "powers" to promote and assist and would not even matched the authority of the London Assembly the voters saw through it.

 

[MegaSteve]

It is annoying to me when I hear English people all bracketed together as some homogeneous bunch of Home Counties dwelling service industry employees. (Bankers could be another word!!)

I would like to point out, if I may, that despite the best efforts on many successive governments there are still some employed in manufacturing in the "Home Counties"...