Scotland Debate

[Deleted member 18588]

I would like to point out, if I may, that despite the best efforts on many successive governments there are still some employed in manufacturing in the "Home Counties"...

Exactly, it is that sort of generalisation that annoys me.

In other words we don't all live in the Home Counties and those that do are not all greedy bankers (that could have been a dangerous typo!)

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Again from Question Time at Croydon.

A resident said that the government will only take action with additional affordalbe housing in the south east when they don't get their bins emptied, their house burns down because there are no fireman or no nurses available in the hospitals.

So perhaps there is an imbalance of 'workers'.

 

[SocketRocket]

Another point made on QT by Peter Hitchens. He made a very valid point that was howled down by lefties regarding the shortfall in housing and pressurised public services being a result of the current and previous governments policy of allowing mass immigration. He qualified his opinion, in that he lays no blame onto the immigrants themselves but on the politicians that have allowed this situation to occur and continue. Unfortunately he received a lot of barracking by some that don't think anyone should be allowed put forward this point of view or even mention the 'i' word.

 

[SocketRocket]

Again from Question Time at Croydon.

A resident said that the government will only take action with additional affordalbe housing in the south east when they don't get their bins emptied, their house burns down because there are no fireman or no nurses available in the hospitals.

So perhaps there is an imbalance of 'workers'.

Some people say some strange things. No Firemen, no Nurses in the hospitals. Come on!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Scotland, For Richer, For Poorer presented by Robert Peston's was surprisingly interesting and balanced.
I generally can't stand the guy, as I think he goes out of the way to be rude and aggressive.

Did it show in rUK, if so what did you think?

 

[chrisd]

Scotland, For Richer, For Poorer presented by Robert Peston's was surprisingly interesting and balanced.
I generally can't stand the guy, as I think he goes out of the way to be rude and aggressive.

Did it show in rUK, if so what did you think?

Yes it was on here too. Didn't bother to watch it though as it's not any choice of ours what happens in the end!

If staying or leaving is ONLY about money then it's irrelevant to me which way the vote goes

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As the weeks have gone on I find myself getting more concerned about some of the stuff I hear expressed by some YES supporters - and in particular thoughts and perceptions of England and the English. Because as I listen to some such ill-informed and blinkered opinions I wonder how much these voters actually understand about the key issues for their country - my country,

And so to today - I find myself for the first time thinking that if I had a vote I might well vote NO - despite my past record of 30+ yrs ago as an SNP voter - back then voting SNP on an independence ticket was easy as it didn't really matter as it wasn't on the table - today it does - and it is. And the thing is I think that my inclination toward NO is ONLY because I live in England. Had I not moved to England for work back in 1984 - and had stayed in Scotland like many schoolfriends have done - I suspect that I might be a strong YES supporter. My perceptions of Scotland as an insider and with living in Scotland would I suspect be very different from those of the outsider that I am today.

Saying that I could still see myself going into the ballot with intention to put a big X against NO - but at the last minute thinking 'why not - let's go for it' - because despite all the economic pros and cons - the gut instinct of many Scots is probably a wish to stand on our own two feet.

 

[Val]

As the weeks have gone on I find myself getting more concerned about some of the stuff I hear expressed by some YES supporters - and in particular thoughts and perceptions of England and the English. Because as I listen to some such ill-informed and blinkered opinions I wonder how much these voters actually understand about the key issues for their country - my country.

This interests me greatly, are you saying or suggesting there is an anti English feeling driving some of this?

I have strong views on what a lot of no supporters have on not just an anti English feeling but the feelings for those in the NO camp and in particular those in the public eye backing NO, JK Rowling as an example who took a power of abuse.

There is a lot of what i'd perceive to be bigotry driving many YES supporters.

 

[DCB]

This interests me greatly, are you saying or suggesting there is an anti English feeling driving some of this?

I have strong views on what a lot of no supporters have on not just an anti English feeling but the feelings for those in the NO camp and in particular those in the public eye backing NO, JK Rowling as an example who took a power of abuse.

There is a lot of what i'd perceive to be bigotry driving many YES supporters.

Certainly seen some very aggressive Yes campaigners on a Saturday morning outside the shops. They don't seem to be able to accept that there is another view other than theirs. I've wondered if they actually understand what the democratic process is there for.

 

[c1973]

This interests me greatly, are you saying or suggesting there is an anti English feeling driving some of this?

I have strong views on what a lot of no supporters have on not just an anti English feeling but the feelings for those in the NO camp and in particular those in the public eye backing NO, JK Rowling as an example who took a power of abuse.

There is a lot of what i'd perceive to be bigotry driving many YES supporters.

I tend to agree with this, you will not find many (if any) who admit to it though, although I do accept not all are driven by this.

I do believe that there is anti English sentiments amongst some of the general public, mostly through ignorance and a seriously flawed understanding of our shared history. England and Scotland may have had a few fights and fall outs over the years (usually caused by rich families with land on both sides of the border btw) but we were peaceable neighbours and partners for many more years, and long may that continue.

We are, after all, 'aw Jock Tamsons bairns'.

 

[CMAC]

Scotland, For Richer, For Poorer presented by Robert Peston's was surprisingly interesting and balanced.
I generally can't stand the guy, as I think he goes out of the way to be rude and aggressive.

Did it show in rUK, if so what did you think?

I watched it and agree with this sentiment, it was very interesting and I learned some very good facts about Scotland but no 'facts' about what the yes campaigners will do or achieve if the dence :smirk: get their way.

It showed so much uncertainty and 'failure evidence' from the past of similar situations as well as some 'potential' positives if they follow countries like Norway in their oil money investments, but it's a big IF and even Salmond says it will cost us initially.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I watched it and agree with this sentiment, it was very interesting and I learned some very good facts about Scotland but no 'facts' about what the yes campaigners will do or achieve if the dence :smirk: get their way.

It showed so much uncertainty and 'failure evidence' from the past of similar situations as well as some 'potential' positives if they follow countries like Norway in their oil money investments, but it's a big IF and even Salmond says it will cost us initially.

Sobering thought that a tax hike of 1% would be required long term for Scotland to pay back our share [8.5%] of the UK's debt.

 

[c1973]

Sobering thought that a tax hike of 1% would be required long term for Scotland to pay back our share [8.5%] of the UK's debt.

Aye, but the oil will cover that! No doubt it will be argued that it's a small price to pay etc etc.

I never actually watched the programme (visitors) and I have in the main switched off to the arguments for and against now (over exposure does that), but I might have a look on the red button to catch it.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

This interests me greatly, are you saying or suggesting there is an anti English feeling driving some of this?

I have strong views on what a lot of no supporters have on not just an anti English feeling but the feelings for those in the NO camp and in particular those in the public eye backing NO, JK Rowling as an example who took a power of abuse.

There is a lot of what i'd perceive to be bigotry driving many YES supporters.

Certainly seen some very aggressive Yes campaigners on a Saturday morning outside the shops. They don't seem to be able to accept that there is another view other than theirs. I've wondered if they actually understand what the democratic process is there for.

I tend to agree with this, you will not find many (if any) who admit to it though, although I do accept not all are driven by this.

I do believe that there is anti English sentiments amongst some of the general public, mostly through ignorance and a seriously flawed understanding of our shared history. England and Scotland may have had a few fights and fall outs over the years (usually caused by rich families with land on both sides of the border btw) but we were peaceable neighbours and partners for many more years, and long may that continue.

We are, after all, 'aw Jock Tamsons bairns'.

Interesting point of view.That aggression and negativity is predominantly an affliction of those voting YES in September.

And yet last week a Labour candidate had to resign after tweeting a picture of Hilter Youth and comparing them to kids with yes badges.And for every nasty word said about JKR there is equal words for the Weirs.And ADarling comparing Salmond to the former leader of NKorea, but then hiding behind 'I wiz only jokin'.Reverse the roles and imagine the MSM outcry if the fat jambo had said that about Cameron.

Seriously, if you think that stupidity,aggression and lies are unique to one side of this debate, then not only are you awfy delicate and sheltered, but incredibly deluded too.

 

[c1973]

Interesting point of view.That aggression and negativity is predominantly an affliction of those voting YES in September.

And yet last week a Labour candidate had to resign after tweeting a picture of Hilter Youth and comparing them to kids with yes badges.And for every nasty word said about JKR there is equal words for the Weirs.And ADarling comparing Salmond to the former leader of NKorea, but then hiding behind 'I wiz only jokin'.Reverse the roles and imagine the MSM outcry if the fat jambo had said that about Cameron.

Seriously, if you think that stupidity,aggression and lies are unique to one side of this debate, then not only are you awfy delicate and sheltered, but incredibly deluded too.

Show me where I say any of the above is unique to one side.

I was commenting on a post about anti English sentiment. Nothing to do with Hitler Youth, Harry Potter or the Weirs and Kim Jong Il (or whatever his name is). What your post shows is (despite being perfectly capable of forming and opining a point of view) when there is the slightest hint of an uncomfortable truth emerging that doesn't sit well with the yes campaign, then the name calling, insults and whataboutery are rolled out.

The whole debate has been tarnished by this behaviour and it is beyond boring now and imo is now insulting to those (and I would include yourself and other yes campaigners too) who wish to hear reasoned debate.

And, I am neither delicate ,nor I can assure you, am I sheltered or deluded.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Show me where I say any of the above is unique to one side.

I was commenting on a post about anti English sentiment. Nothing to do with Hitler Youth, Harry Potter or the Weirs and Kim Jong Il (or whatever his name is). What your post shows is (despite being perfectly capable of forming and opining a point of view) when there is the slightest hint of an uncomfortable truth emerging that doesn't sit well with the yes campaign, then the name calling, insults and whataboutery are rolled out.

The whole debate has been tarnished by this behaviour and it is beyond boring now and imo is now insulting to those (and I would include yourself and other yes campaigners too) who wish to hear reasoned debate.

And, I am neither delicate ,nor I can assure you, am I sheltered or deluded.

you never offered a counter point suggesting that The BT campaign are equally as guilty.

I'm all for reasoned debate, I've yet to see much coming from BT but if you can point me in the direction I'll be happy enough to debate it.A good example of this is the refusal of BT to engage in debate, the constant withdrawal of BT from events simply because a YES delegate is going to be there.

I maybe do get a overly defensive, but constant sniping eventually wears you down.I'll say it again, the accusation of cybernatery is over played in the extreme.I do my fair share of reasoned debating on here, mostly in the face of opposition, once and a while I get fed up with the moral high ground being occupied by folk falsely.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This interests me greatly, are you saying or suggesting there is an anti English feeling driving some of this?

I have strong views on what a lot of no supporters have on not just an anti English feeling but the feelings for those in the NO camp and in particular those in the public eye backing NO, JK Rowling as an example who took a power of abuse.

There is a lot of what i'd perceive to be bigotry driving many YES supporters.

As an example - listening to a YES contributor on R5L yesterday morning I found myself cringing at the anti-English, verging on racist, nature of many of the points and 'issues' being raised. In fact Nicky Campbell (bless his cotton socks) gently made that point as the contributor sounded a very nice highland lady who I am sure could never consider herself racist - indeed would be mightily affronted. But none the less and no matter how committed and emotionally she felt for a YES and her love of her country - I was disappointed that she expressed her views in the way she did.

 

[c1973]

you never offered a counter point suggesting that The BT campaign are equally as guilty.

I'm all for reasoned debate, I've yet to see much coming from BT but if you can point me in the direction I'll be happy enough to debate it.A good example of this is the refusal of BT to engage in debate, the constant withdrawal of BT from events simply because a YES delegate is going to be there.

I maybe do get a overly defensive, but constant sniping eventually wears you down.I'll say it again, the accusation of cybernatery is over played in the extreme.I do my fair share of reasoned debating on here, mostly in the face of opposition, once and a while I get fed up with the moral high ground being occupied by folk falsely.

That's because I don't believe the no campaign are guilty of anti English sentiment, which is what I was commenting on.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I NEED to hear rational pro-Scotland arguments - arguments that consider political and cultural differences and perhaps how Westminster and the UK CoG that is London and the SE may not allow for these differences to be expressed through such as socio-economic and tax and spending policies. But when I hear of 'the English this' and 'England that' the YES campaign (through no fault of their own) starts to lose me.

Saying all of that - and despite my concerns, perhaps I would be happier if YES won the day - because then and only then will I hear no more 'the English this' and 'England that' whinging coming from home north of the border. And maybe that is a price worth paying.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

That's because I don't believe the no campaign are guilty of anti English sentiment, which is what I was commenting on.

Fair point.