Scotland Debate

[Deleted member 18588]

If Cameron had a position of principle on Europe he'd be telling us that he will be campaigning for UK to stay in the EU and telling us the circumstances that would cause him to do otherwise.

From many of your previous posts it has become clear that you, like your compatriot DfT, are selective in what you choose to hear.

On Saturday morning the PM made his intention clear to campaign in favour of remaining within Europe subject to successful renegotiation of the current terms.

The only UK political leader that, therefore, seems devoid of principle on this issue is Mr Milliband. We all know the positions of Messrs Farage and Clegg but the Leader of the Opposition is clearly trapped between his personal pro-federal view and his realisation that this sits uneasily with the majority of the electorate.

As for Salmond, well it doesn't really matter since the EU have suggested that Scotland could be excluded in the event of aYes vote.

 

[SocketRocket]

Similarly I've heard it said England has moved away from Scotland politically - and so it is England that has changed and England that is risking taking Scotland out of the UK. Heard it said.

Where? Down the pub!

Who is this 'England' of which you speak? Is it a majority consensus from some poll that I must have missed, is it your own gut feeling, is it a reported perception by Mr Salmond, maybe some editorial in the Guardian. Or as I suggest, something someone said down the pub.

 

[Hobbit]

Similarly I've heard it said England has moved away from Scotland politically - and so it is England that has changed and England that is risking taking Scotland out of the UK. Heard it said.

I've heard it said that Martians are living on the dark side of the moon.

Both the above comments are as rare as rocking horse poo, and have little basis in fact.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

As for Salmond, well it doesn't really matter since the EU have suggested that Scotland could be excluded in the event of aYes vote.

'Suggested' and 'could' by one guy.............and I am accused by you of being selective in my quotes.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Where? Down the pub!

Who is this 'England' of which you speak? Is it a majority consensus from some poll that I must have missed, is it your own gut feeling, is it a reported perception by Mr Salmond, maybe some editorial in the Guardian. Or as I suggest, something someone said down the pub.

A view that has been expressed that suggests why many Scots feel as they do about remaining in the UK (or leaving it) is that whereas in the past the views of Scots and rUK were pretty much aligned - that is no longer the case. And it is not that the views of Scots have changed - it is that the views of rUK have moved to the right - and away from those of Scotland.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

From many of your previous posts it has become clear that you, like your compatriot DfT, are selective in what you choose to hear.

On Saturday morning the PM made his intention clear to campaign in favour of remaining within Europe subject to successful renegotiation of the current terms.

The only UK political leader that, therefore, seems devoid of principle on this issue is Mr Milliband. We all know the positions of Messrs Farage and Clegg but the Leader of the Opposition is clearly trapped between his personal pro-federal view and his realisation that this sits uneasily with the majority of the electorate.

As for Salmond, well it doesn't really matter since the EU have suggested that Scotland could be excluded in the event of aYes vote.

If Cameron is in principle pro-Europe and against leaving he should make that very clear. Instead he panders to the euro-sceptics in his party and support base by suggesting that he'd be happy taking UK out of Europe.

And in the context of the independence referendum it is surely better for BT that Cameron does the former. Suggesting UK would leave Europe and he'd be happy with that I don't think helps BT that much. I appreciate he has a problem with that though. Polls and YES suggest Scots would rather stay in Europe; polls suggest many rUK Tory politicians, voters and others would prefer to leave Europe. And re-election of a Tory Westminster government requires Cameron to be seen and heard to be listening to and 'reflecting the views' of that latter constituency. A problem for him.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

'Suggested' and 'could' by one guy.............and I am accused by you of being selective in my quotes.

Yes but that one guy, Senor Barolo, carries rather more weight in these discussions than your friend Mr Salmond.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

A view that has been expressed that suggests why many Scots feel as they do about remaining in the UK (or leaving it) is that whereas in the past the views of Scots and rUK were pretty much aligned - that is no longer the case. And it is not that the views of Scots have changed - it is that the views of rUK have moved to the right - and away from those of Scotland.

Yet again you fail to answer questions put to you.

Where has it been stated, never mind proved, that there is some political gap between England (not Surrey) and Scotland.

On the point of the PM's stance on Europe you really should stop attributing statements to him that he has not made. Leave that to The Guardian.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yet again you fail to answer questions put to you.

Where has it been stated, never mind proved, that there is some political gap between England (not Surrey) and Scotland.

On the point of the PM's stance on Europe you really should stop attributing statements to him that he has not made. Leave that to The Guardian.

I'm not saying that anyone of any particular note has said this and I may not myself believe it. But I have heard it said by some as a reason for them voting YES. Tell them that they are mistaken - but that's what they believe. If you don't believe anyone thinks this then again - OK.

And on Cameron - yes - I'd much rather he made absolutely clear what his principled position on Europe was rather than having to suspect that what he says is aimed at any particular constituency of voter but isn't actually what he believes.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Where has it been stated, never mind proved, that there is some political gap between England (not Surrey) and Scotland.

Is this a trick question? See below for a link to a map from the 2010 GE.See if you can spot the difference, it's quite easy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/

Then consider the recent UKIP success at the European elections to again reflect the differing political climate north/south of the border.

 

[Val]

Similarly I've heard it said England has moved away from Scotland politically - and so it is England that has changed and England that is risking taking Scotland out of the UK. Heard it said.

That is the biggest pile of nonsense you've posted on this thread to date, politically England as a nation doesn't exist as it doesn't have a devolved parliament covering English only matters.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/danny-alexander-slams-alex-salmonds-3786303.

Well this makes interesting reading.

That would the the 'dead parrot' pound that according the Osborne, Capt.Darling and the treasury minister was never going to be an option.
Silly Boy

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Is this a trick question? See below for a link to a map from the 2010 GE.See if you can spot the difference, it's quite easy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/

Then consider the recent UKIP success at the European elections to again reflect the differing political climate north/south of the border.

At the 2010 GE approx 61% of Scottish electorate voted for centre-left parties (Lib-Dem & Labour) and in England the figure was 52%. Not exactly a massive gap.

There were similar regional differences throughout England.

At the recent Euro election did not UKIP secured 10% of the vote in Scotland from a virtual "standing start". Again not that much of a difference when you compare the level of their campaign North & South of the border.

 

[MegaSteve]

it is that the views of rUK have moved to the right

Historically folk turn to the right [politically] when they feel under threat... Once the 'threat' [perceived or real] dissipates they turn back to the centre...

 

[Doon frae Troon]

At the 2010 GE approx 61% of Scottish electorate voted for centre-left parties (Lib-Dem & Labour) and in England the figure was 52%. Not exactly a massive gap.

There were similar regional differences throughout England.

At the recent Euro election did not UKIP secured 10% of the vote in Scotland from a virtual "standing start". Again not that much of a difference when you compare the level of their campaign North & South of the border.

I think I would also add the SNP vote to the centre left votes. Kind of changes the perspective a bit.

 

[Val]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/danny-alexander-slams-alex-salmonds-3786303.

Well this makes interesting reading.

That would the the 'dead parrot' pound that according the Osborne, Capt.Darling and the treasury minister was never going to be an option.
Silly Boy

Dunno what you are getting at here. Have you read and digested this story? This time it looks like the treasury have it spot on regarding what John Swinneys financial plans for Independent Scotland.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That is the biggest pile of nonsense you've posted on this thread to date, politically England as a nation doesn't exist as it doesn't have a devolved parliament covering English only matters.

Politically England as a nation exists by it's representation in Westminster. That representation may not reflect the views of the country of England as a whole - but that is representative democracy for you. If what is decided and enacted by the Westminster parliament today is to the right of what would have been enacted by it 30yrs ago then Westminster has moved to the right. If Scotland has not changed it's political stance over these years then England can be described in these specific terms having moved to the right and way from Scotland.

And it is not me saying this - this is what I have heard said and read by some who will vote YES and indeed some who will vote NO.

So tell them they are wrong if you wish and try and convince them otherwise if you want - but don't tell me I am wrong for reporting what I have heard said.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Politically England as a nation exists by it's representation in Westminster. That representation may not reflect the views of the country of England as a whole - but that is representative democracy for you. If what is decided and enacted by the Westminster parliament today is to the right of what would have been enacted by it 30yrs ago then Westminster has moved to the right. If Scotland has not changed it's political stance over these years then England can be described in these specific terms having moved to the right and way from Scotland.

And it is not me saying this - this is what I have heard said and read by some who will vote YES and indeed some who will vote NO.

So tell them they are wrong if you wish and try and convince them otherwise if you want - but don't tell me I am wrong for reporting what I have heard said.

Unfortunately SILH, I think the issue people are having is bringing in to a fairly decent debate, the viewpoint of "something you've heard". I've heard people blame every big weather event (such as a hurricane, or flood) on a big machine the Americans have in place at the North Pole. They were deadly serious. Despite this, i wouldn't bring this into a serious debate about the global weather.

As such, if you're introducing such viewpoints, then it stands to reason you believe them to be sensible viewpoints held by a large amount of people, whereas it does seem to be only you that have heard these opinions stated. (IMHO, not trying to be confrontational)

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Historically folk turn to the right [politically] when they feel under threat... Once the 'threat' [perceived or real] dissipates they turn back to the centre...

Probably a generation thing rather than 'historically'

That was why my father was a staunch Unionist [Scots Tory] all his life.
He blamed the start WW2 on Labour's defense policy.

 

[Val]

Politically England as a nation exists by it's representation in Westminster. That representation may not reflect the views of the country of England as a whole - but that is representative democracy for you. If what is decided and enacted by the Westminster parliament today is to the right of what would have been enacted by it 30yrs ago then Westminster has moved to the right. If Scotland has not changed it's political stance over these years then England can be described in these specific terms having moved to the right and way from Scotland.

And it is not me saying this - this is what I have heard said and read by some who will vote YES and indeed some who will vote NO.

So tell them they are wrong if you wish and try and convince them otherwise if you want - but don't tell me I am wrong for reporting what I have heard said.

This is your response almost every time you're posts are questioned, like a taxi driver saying he heard Fulham are signing Messi.

Answer me this, how can England move away from Scotland politically when they have no devolved powers?