Rules on ball in red stake after tee shot

[albie999]

Been googling around, and have found lots of articles explaining the 1-drop penalty rule after going into red staked areas, but what happens if that is off the tee?

I know if you hit first shot into red area, and you hit a provisional you are then playing 3 off the tee (with that ball in play), but if I hit off the tee, and my first ball goes in red stake area, am I still able to play that ball with a 1-shot penalty, therefore my next shot would be my 3rd rather than with a provisional, it would be my 4th

Hope that makes sense the way I have described it

 

[Steven Rules]

Several issues here.

First, the options, penalties etc are the same regardless of whether the ball is in the red penalty area after the first shot or the fifth shot, or whether it was played from the teeing area, the general area, a bunker, another penalty area, the putting green, or anywhere else (except the same penalty area, in which case the options are similar but subtly different).

Second, if you know the ball is in the penalty area you cannot play a provisional ball.

If you know the ball is in the penalty area your options are:

*play the ball as it lies in the penalty area - no penalty
*play again from where the previous stroke was played - one penalty stroke (also known as stroke-and-distance)
*take 2 club length lateral relief measured from where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area - one penalty stroke
*take back-on-the-line relief based on where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area - one penalty stroke.

Rather than 'Googling around', all this is covered in Rule 17.1 including some pretty handy explanatory diagrams.

I hope this helps.

 

[backwoodsman]

If you hit your tee shot into a red penalty area - and you actually know it's in there - then you're not allowed to play a provisional. You take your drop under the red PA rules under penalty of one stroke. (So, into the PA for 1, drop out for 2, next shot is your third).

However, if you're not sure if the ball has gone in the PA, (ie it has reasonable possibility of being outside the PA) then you can play a provisional. You then go and look. If you find the original in the PA, then you continue with that ball - dropping and playing your third shot. The provisional is irrelevant (you have no option of playing it). If you don't find your original ball, you can continue with the provisional, and your next shot will be your 4th.

Or see above - beaten to it.

 

[Whereditgo]

If it is known or virtually certain that your original ball may be lost in a penalty area you cannot play a provisional.

Beaten to it above.

 

[albie999]

Thanks all for the explanation, much appreciated ... and I will go an look at that rule 17.1 .. I was not aware what rule it would have been under

 

[Steven Rules]

.... and Rule 18.3a covers when you can and can't play a provisional ball.

 

[salfordlad]

Thanks all for the explanation, much appreciated ... and I will go an look at that rule 17.1 .. I was not aware what rule it would have been under

Get yourself the R&A Rules of Golf app on your phone and bookmark the R&A rules website on your computer. Gradually get familiar with them - they are reliable on rules issues, Google is not.

 

[HampshireHog]

Had a situation today where someone wanted to play a provisional after their drive appeared to go in a red penalty area at the far end. They argued that they thought it might have cleared the penalty area but but they might not find it in the bank.

Me and they other player weren’t having it but he was adamant he was entitled to play a provisional. My comment was if he didn’t find the ball was it lost or in the penalty area and by playing a provisional he was declaring it definitely wasn’t in the penalty area and could not subsequently take relief as if it was.

Ultimately, he elected not to play a provisional found the ball in the penalty area and was able to play it without requiring relief.

Interested on what the correct ruling and course of action is in this situation.

 

[rulefan]

Had a situation today where someone wanted to play a provisional after their drive appeared to go in a red penalty area at the far end. They argued that they thought it might have cleared the penalty area but but they might not find it in the bank.

Me and they other player weren’t having it but he was adamant he was entitled to play a provisional. My comment was if he didn’t find the ball was it lost or in the penalty area and by playing a provisional he was declaring it definitely wasn’t in the penalty area and could not subsequently take relief as if it was.

Ultimately, he elected not to play a provisional found the ball in the penalty area and was able to play it without requiring relief.

Interested on what the correct ruling and course of action is in this situation.

See posts #2 & #3

If, when you have just played, you believe that your ball may be lost outside a penalty area, then you may play a provisional. If you are sure it is in a penalty area, you cannot.

A new situation arises when you get to the area where you think the ball may be. If you are now certain your ball is in the PA you must abandon the provisional and play the original, taking relief if appropriate. If you find the ball outside the PA you must continue with it.
If you are now sure that the ball is outside the PA but is not found within the 3 minutes, it is lost and you must continue with the provisional.

 

[Steven Rules]

My comment was ...... by playing a provisional he was declaring it definitely wasn’t in the penalty area

This comment is incorrect. He was entitled to play a provisional if the ball might have been lost outside the penalty area (or out of bounds).

They argued that they thought it might have cleared the penalty area but but they might not find it in the bank.

The people actually playing that hole on the day are best placed to determine whether it was possible the ball might be lost on the far bank outside the penalty area. vegetation? terrain? embedded? visibility? etc

 

[HampshireHog]

This comment is incorrect. He was entitled to play a provisional if the ball might have been lost outside the penalty area (or out of bounds).

I thought it probably wasn’t correct.

The people actually playing that hole on the day are best placed to determine whether it was possible the ball might be lost on the far bank in the general area. vegetation? terrain? embedded? visibility? etc

There was no possibility that if the ball had cleared the PA that it would not have been found.

 

[Colin L]

Had a situation today where someone wanted to play a provisional after their drive appeared to go in a red penalty area at the far end. They argued that they thought it might have cleared the penalty area but but they might not find it in the bank.

Me and they other player weren’t having it but he was adamant he was entitled to play a provisional. He was entitled to play a provisional because he believed his ball might be lost other than in the penalty area. That was his decision alone to make, taking into account any information you and the other player could give him.
My comment was if he didn’t find the ball was it lost or in the penalty area and by playing a provisional he was declaring it definitely wasn’t in the penalty area and could not subsequently take relief as if it was. That is not correct. If his original ball is found anywhere on the course within 3 minutes of searching, he must continue play with it and abandon the provisional.. If he had followed your advice and, having found his ball in the penalty area continued with the provisional ball he would have been playing a wrong ball.

Ultimately, he elected not to play a provisional found the ball in the penalty area and was able to play it without requiring relief.

Interested on what the correct ruling and course of action is in this situation.

 

[Colin L]

There was no possibility that if the ball had cleared the PA that it would not have been found.

I wrote my comment above before seeing this additional bit of information.

 

[HampshireHog]

That is not correct. If his original ball is found anywhere on the course within 3 minutes of searching, he must continue play with it and abandon the provisional.. If he had followed your advice and, having found his ball in the penalty area continued with the provisional ball he would have been playing a wrong ball.

My comment was based on on the scenario of the ball not being found obviously if it found the provisional would have been moot.

What I was trying to assertain was that if the provisional was played and let’s say it goes in the water, the original is not found, whether you can the turn round and say I now believe my first ball is lost in the PA. To me you you could not be 95% certain otherwise you would not have hit the provisional. I now know you can do this.

 

[salfordlad]

My comment was based on on the scenario of the ball not being found obviously if it found the provisional would have been moot.

What I was trying to assertain was that if the provisional was played and let’s say it goes in the water, the original is not found, whether you can the turn round and say I now believe my first ball is lost in the PA. To me you you could not be 95% certain otherwise you would not have hit the provisional. I now know you can do this.

The rules have a bit of a Catch 22 situation in them.
After playing a stroke, if there is a risk the ball may be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, you may play a provisional and proceed to search for the original ball. By the 3 minute search time limit (if not already decided and ball is not found) you have to resolve whether the ball was lost in the PA or not. If you have KVC (at least 95 per cent probability) the answer is yes, your provisional is now a wrong ball and you must proceed to take PA relief. If no KVC, provisional is now ball in play.
However, if you conclude immediately after playing the original stroke that there is KVC the ball is in the PA, you may not play a provisional ball. That said, there is nothing in the rules that requires a player to make an assessment of KVC immediately after playing a stroke - the player is free to decide that issue after gathering further information including by proceeding with a search.

 

[Jigger]

Been googling around, and have found lots of articles explaining the 1-drop penalty rule after going into red staked areas, but what happens if that is off the tee?

I know if you hit first shot into red area, and you hit a provisional you are then playing 3 off the tee (with that ball in play), but if I hit off the tee, and my first ball goes in red stake area, am I still able to play that ball with a 1-shot penalty, therefore my next shot would be my 3rd rather than with a provisional, it would be my 4th

Hope that makes sense the way I have described it

The fact you can’t call a provisional in that instance is one of the most ridiculous rules still in existence in my opinion. We have massive ponds on our course with reeds around them and while you may see it bounce, they can roll back in the pond. It can really impact pace of play while a player goes to check before potentially going back to the tee.

 

[Colin L]

The fact you can’t call a provisional in that instance is one of the most ridiculous rules still in existence in my opinion. We have massive ponds on our course with reeds around them and while you may see it bounce, they can roll back in the pond. It can really impact pace of play while a player goes to check before potentially going back to the tee.

Perhaps your club might think about marking the penalty area to include the reeds.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This has me confused…if I see my ball go into a red penalty area I cannot at that point immediately say that I am going to take stroke and distance and put another ball (not a provisional) in play. Or is it that I cannot at that point play a provisional…which I get.

 

[Jigger]

Perhaps your club might think about marking the penalty area to include the reeds.

Reeds by nature are in the pond and therefore with the red stakes. ?

my point was that due to their height, you can’t tell if your ball is in or out of the penalty area.

 

[Colin L]

Reeds by nature are in the pond and therefore with the red stakes. ?

my point was that due to their height, you can’t tell if your ball is in or out of the penalty area.

Well, reeds by nature also grow outside ponds but no matter. Is it possible then for the ground outside the penalty area to be kept mown such that if your ball is not in the penalty area it will be found, or the other way round, if it is not found outside the penalty area it you have virtual certainty it is in it?