Colin L
Tour Winner
You can take stroke and distance at any time from anywhere [Rule 18.1] and so you can do so right away if your ball is in a penalty area. If you know your ball is in a penalty area, you cannot play a provisional [Rule 18.3a].
Rules on ball in red stake after tee shot
- Thread starter albie999
- Start date
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Thanks C…that’s actually what I thought, I just got confused by the contortions, clarifications and corrections such threads seem to go through.
Colin L
Tour Winner
You’re not alone. ?
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
Yes you can.If you see your ball go into a red P.A., you then have the three options to choose from. one of the choices is to hit another ball from the same place(stroke and distance).
The latter question you ask is correct.
The critical question is whether you have near certainty that it has gone into the PA.
Edit...beaten to it.
On a slightly different question. Whose decision is it that it is a near certainty that the ball has gone into a PA.
is it the player's, or his PP, or does it have to be agreement by all in the group?
Colin L
Tour Winner
It is the player's responsibility to know the rules and his/her decision as to what to do in any situation. Other players or spectators should be asked as they might have useful observations to make to help with the decision, but they have no authority over the player.
To be precise, though, you are not allowed to play a provisional ball if you are aware your ball cannot possibly be anywhere other than in the penalty area.. If you have only near certainty, you are aware that it might be somewhere else. If it might be lost somewhere else, you may play a provisional.
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
Thank you re my question. I take it that the player's decision is not paramount if there is a referee? ( not that I've ever played with one present).
I thought my paraphrase of "knowledge or virtual certainty " was clear.
I think your phrase is more than virtual certainty. So we both perhaps should use KoVC?
rulie
Head Pro
When you're standing at the point of your last stroke, it is often very difficult to have knowledge or virtual certainty of where your ball now lies. Knowledge or virtual certainty is much easier to determine when you're in the vicinity of where your ball ended up. The purpose of a provisional ball is to save time - the time spent returning to the spot of your last stroke. The wording is Rule 18.3 (Provisional Ball) is purposely "loose" and, imo, is intended to allow a provisional ball more times than not.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I am assuming that you state this in respect of playing a provisional. Even if I don’t see my ball go into a penalty area, or indeed if I know it is NOT in a PA, I can still put another ball in play if I so choose. I can do that at any time.
Colin L
Tour Winner
I was referring only to
Yes, if there is a referee involved, he or she decides.
With regard to not being allowed to play a provisional, it is indeed more than a matter of virtual certainty or "near certainty". It is a matter of complete certainty being required, of being aware that the ball couldn't possibly be anywhere other than in the PA.
if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed.[18.3]
Virtual certainty means something less than complete certainty, less than knowing for sure. It means there is 5% uncertainty and that means a possibility that the ball is outside the penalty area. Given that, there is also the possibility of its being lost or out of bounds before you can definitely play one. It's very simple, really. If you know your ball must be in the PA, you cannot play a provisional .
Yes, if there is a referee involved, he or she decides.
With regard to not being allowed to play a provisional, it is indeed more than a matter of virtual certainty or "near certainty". It is a matter of complete certainty being required, of being aware that the ball couldn't possibly be anywhere other than in the PA.
if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed.[18.3]
Virtual certainty means something less than complete certainty, less than knowing for sure. It means there is 5% uncertainty and that means a possibility that the ball is outside the penalty area. Given that, there is also the possibility of its being lost or out of bounds before you can definitely play one. It's very simple, really. If you know your ball must be in the PA, you cannot play a provisional .
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
Yes, of course you can. Like you I understand that if I don't like where it has gone, I can do that. In effect, deciding that the first shot is unplayable ?
IIRC. Some people who hit into a bunker sometimes do this to avoid playing out of the bunker!
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
Ok I see the rule quote and I have never believed otherwise. In fact I have informed layers that Eva use the ball is in the PA they can't play a provvy.
So, the kovc must be for other circumstances , such as the player deciding that the ball is in a PA.
But then it's been pointed out that the player alone decides that, that his PPs cannot decide.
If it suits a chancer type to say his ball is in the PA rather than lost , then there you are?Hmmm
rulie
Head Pro
If the opponent (match play) or other players (stroke play) do not agree with the player's actions, they can and should bring it to the attention of the player and the Committee in a timely manner.
Similar threads
