Rules confusion.

[Ali-G]

So I find my ball in trees having flown the green. I have no backswing, therfore no shot directly at the green as the ball is an inch infront of a mature tree trunk. I can't get the club anywhere near it to play in the direction of the green. So I decide to chip out at 90degrees. When I turn my stance 90degrees to play out, I now will hit a staked tree with my revised backswing direction. Can I now obtain relief under local rules for protection of staked trees which will put me in a position to have a clear chip into the green?

 

[sawtooth]

For clarification you want to get relief from the staked tree by intending to play out sideaways and then once you get relief you then change your mind and go straight for the green?

I would think that is OK but not 100% sure. It sounds like one of those situations that the rules allow you to do it legally, but it may be considered cheating by some.

 

[Ali-G]

More or less. Initial shot cannot be played in the direction of the green / flagstick because of the non staked tree trunk directly behind the ball. So I then opt to play a chip out sideways at 90degrees into clear space, but in doing this I will now hit a staked tree in my backswing. I genuinely want to chip out sideways as opposed to taking an 'un-playable' penalty drop as taking an unplayable penalty drop will take me deeper into the trees and potentially more trouble. Hitting a staked tree is a 'must' lift and drop... not a 'may' lift and drop. Really not sure what is correct thing to do here?

 

[Bikky73]

I'd say it depends. Me and my brothers just play for a bit of fun, so our rules are, if there's obsticles you may hit, drop the ball approx 1 club length away to save damaging clubs , it's our rules, and we don't play for :cheers:, just to take the mikky out of each other.

 

[chrisd]

Your fine with that Ali. You can show the shot that you intend to play and then will get full relief, after which you can proceed as you wish. This is an example of using the rules to help insted of the usual case of them hurting you


Chris

 

[Ethan]

Your fine with that Ali. You can show the shot that you intend to play and then will get full relief, after which you can proceed as you wish. This is an example of using the rules to help insted of the usual case of them hurting you


Chris

Spot on. You were proceeding perfectly properly, and once you take relief you can play any shot in any direction you like. Sometimes you get the breaks, most of the time you don't.

 

[Ali-G]

OK. Thanks. I had one a few weeks back whereby my ball rolled up to the base of another mature tree trunk ( I seem to get near lots of trees). The tree was totally 100% blocking my line to the green. The ball and my stance was in a clear rabbit scrape at the base of the tree between tree roots. I took a penalty drop as opposed to a 'free drop due to ground disturbed by burrowing animal' as I had no shot in the intended direction of play in the first instance. In this case, I think that I was right to not get a free drop, but to take the penalty as 'un-playable'.

However afterwards someone commented that at the time you have decided your first shot is not viable, you then adjust your intended direction to chip out sideways. From this point in time your revised line of play is a chip out sideways onto the fairway. This is your new intended direction of play for the shot. From this point you then declare you are in ground disturbed by a burrowing animal and get relief. I personally think that this can't be right? as you never had a shot in the first instance and would never have originally played in that direction if it was not for the tree in your way.

I think the example above (start of this thread) is different as the free drop in that instance is mandatory to protect the staked tree, and not to improve my position. Is this correct?

 

[Region3]

As others have said, you were definitely right in the original question.

I also think you're right with the last question. If you wouldn't have a shot without the scrape there then you can't take relief from it.

 

[Evesdad]

A bit like using a driver to measure your club length for a drop and then hitting a wedge.

 

[Doc]

In the situations you describe if your intended line of swing or stance is hindered by anything you are entitled to get relief from then take relief.

I would agree that in fairness you should only use the club you are intending to take the shot with to take relief.

After relief is taken you are entirely at liberty to play whichever shot you want.

If however you are trying to get relief from a scrape at the base of a non staked tree and the tree is hindering your stance then the tree takes precedence over the scrape and relief cannot be taken.

That is as I myself understand the rules.

Cheers

Steve...

 

[MashieNiblick]

Interesting that a number of points arise here.

First scenario, yes you were entitled to a free drop as the sideways shot was not unreasonable in the circumstances. Once you take relief if you then get a shot to the green that's your good fortune. See Decision 24-2b/17 Obstruction Interferes with Abnormal Stroke; Abnormal Stroke Reasonable in Circumstances

For the second scenario I'd say you were also entitled to a free drop. If your only option is to play sideways and you could reasonably do so if your ball wasn't in a burrowing animal hole then I don't see why Rule 25-1 doesn't apply as a sideways stroke is clearly reasonable in the circumstances. Decision 25-1b/22 Cast of Burrowing Animal Interferes with Sideways Stroke; When Relief Granted, says

"Q. A ball is behind a tree so that a sideways stroke is the only reasonable stroke for the player. However, a cast made by a burrowing animal interferes with the backswing for a sideways stroke. Is the player entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b?

"A. Yes, and if relief gets the player out from behind the tree, he is entitled to play towards the green."

Evesdad, I assume when you say using a driver to measure your club length for a drop and then hitting a wedge you are referring to the fact that you should use your wedge rather than your driver in order to determine the nearest point of relief - i.e. to determine where you will take your stance and establish the area of the intended swing for your next shot. Once you have done that you can then use your driver to measure 1 or 2 club lengths from that point to establish the area where the ball must be dropped. They are two seperate procedures - see FAQ 5 to Rule 25-1 on the R&A Rules explorer web page (it won't let me cut and paste that bit). I'm sure you knew that but just clarifying.

 

[rosecott]

(it won't let me cut and paste that bit

The USGA website is more user-friendly for cutting and pasting.

 

[Charlie_B1981]

my 2p worth,

and hereth lies part of the issue and confusion with the rules!

faq 5 talks about the player should but not must use the club he intends to play the shot with and cannot be penalised for not taking this recommendation. yet later in the same paragraph it refers to the fact that in using a different club that it would be unresonable to play the next shot the player may be at risk of dropping outside the nearest point of relief and may be peanalised for playing from the wrong spot. then later in the example says you can use any club!!

talk about unclear-if its only recommended and not a 'you must the club you intend to play the shot with' then i cant see how they can coment you could be penalised.

separate note i do think this should be the club you intend to play the shot with.

as for burrowing animals the rules are fairly clear that its if the burrow interfers with your intended swing/stance and as Mashiniblick and Doc commented rule 25-1b/22 and in addition 25-1b/21 cover these.

25/1b-21 is clear that if your line to the green has a tree immediately infront of the ball and it is not possible to make that shot and so you must play sideways, and you have a burrow that would interfer if playing directly to the green (which you cant) but doesnt interfer if you play sideways then you are not entitled to relief.

so if your balls in the scraping, regardless of direction of play youd get relief.

 

[chrisd]

It always bothers me that people take a "it doesn't seem right attitude" to proceeding under the rules. The rules can help or hurt, you didn't write them! If a situation occurs and you can get free relief legally using the rules then its absolutely fine - there is no moral code here - - do it, its fine, you don't have to justify what you are doing.


Chris

 

[BTatHome]

It always bothers me that people take a "it doesn't seem right attitude" to proceeding under the rules. The rules can help or hurt, you didn't write them! If a situation occurs and you can get free relief legally using the rules then its absolutely fine - there is no moral code here - - do it, its fine, you don't have to justify what you are doing.


Chris

Fully agree.

Unwritten rules/against the spirit/gentlemans agreement. ..... Tosh, play to the rules. They are exhaustive enough to have include almost all possibilities.

 

[JustOne]

my 2p worth,

and hereth lies part of the issue and confusion with the rules!

faq 5 talks about the player should but not must use the club he intends to play the shot with and cannot be penalised for not taking this recommendation. yet later in the same paragraph it refers to the fact that in using a different club that it would be unresonable to play the next shot the player may be at risk of dropping outside the nearest point of relief and may be peanalised for playing from the wrong spot. then later in the example says you can use any club!!

talk about unclear-if its only recommended and not a 'you must the club you intend to play the shot with' then i cant see how they can coment you could be penalised.

separate note i do think this should be the club you intend to play the shot with.

I think you'll find that 'using the club to determine the drop' refers to when you address the ball. If you are going to hit a wedge to chip out and it will hit a staked tree or animal scrape then you'll get relief.. you can't stand there with DRIVER and say "Oh, look it hits the staked tree!"

Once you have determined that you get relief then out comes the long putter! (ok, driver if you play the game fairly). 1 clublength relief and it can roll up to a further 2 but not nearer the hole.

I know someone who was near a path yet only 80yds from the green, out came his driver which meant that he'd have to stand on the path.... no free drop as the shot required wedge and he could play that without a drop.... had he been 200yds out then he could have had relief.... and then changed his mind and hit 4-iron.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[DCB]

Going back to the OP, when taking relief from the young tree, how was the nearest point of relief established ? The picture I have in my mind would still have the original tree as a possible problem