"Root Cause"

[Tiger]

So Drawboy how do you think we should break the cycle?

 

[chris661]

Tiger "we" don't have to do anything to break the cycle. The lazy, sponging, handout expecting give me everything for nothing brigade need to change. I accept there are people living in what you would class as poverty which by the way would have included my family when I was younger but the difference is I had a knowledge of right and wrong and a work ethic instilled into me. To say that this is society's fault is just wrong people have to take responsibility for their actions and realise that everything has consequences such as not working should mean no sky TV.

 

[Tiger]

I'm not saying that it's society's fault. I'm saying that if we do nothing we perpetuate the problem. I am saying that this is a massive problem for the country with the benefits bill growing, health problems like obesity creating a burden on the health service, decreasing national productivity, breakdown of community, the list goes on.

Some of have incorrectly pigeon holed me as fluffy liberal. I'm not. I'm in favour of benefit reform, I am sickened by the riots, I am frustrated by the cuts in policing, disappointed by the education system and most importantly I want to do something proactive about it. I have seen first hand the potential impact of proactive engagement but there are myths that need to be dispelled to make those impacts more widespread. I'm not an apologist I am a frustrated realist.

 

[Parmo]

Tiger "we" don't have to do anything to break the cycle. The lazy, sponging, handout expecting give me everything for nothing brigade need to change. I accept there are people living in what you would class as poverty which by the way would have included my family when I was younger but the difference is I had a knowledge of right and wrong and a work ethic instilled into me. To say that this is society's fault is just wrong people have to take responsibility for their actions and realise that everything has consequences such as not working should mean no sky TV.

I agree with some of what you say. As a society we have created this by voting in consecutive governments which have created this through their own ideology, its not one party to blame its both. As a country WE vote these people into power and so WE are to blame.

Anyway, we have not listened to these people and now by not doing so we pay the price.

I still don't see the difference between these riots and the Libya ones, the ones we are killing innocent people over, does this mean Cameron should stand down?

 

[Tiger]

This is what I have been trying unsuccessfully to promote.

Click here for article on early intervention approaches

 

[Smiffy]

Years ago, when I was at school, if you misbehaved you got the cane. It hurt. If you had any sense, you only lined yourself up for it once. And if you went home and told your parents you had got the cane at school, they would have said "Tough..... I expect you deserved it".
The cane was eventually banned from schools.
Years ago, if you dared gob off to a policeman, he would clip you around the ear. If he did it right, it would hurt. And if you went home and told your parents they would have said "Tough.....I expect you deserved it".
Nowadays, the police can't do that.
Years ago, if you were cheeky to somebody older than yourself, they would give you another clip around the ear. It hurt just as much as the one from the copper.
And if you went home and told your parents they would say "Tough....I expect you deserved it".
Nowadays, if an OAP did that to a youngster, they would most probably get their house firebombed, be stabbed, or worse.
Now, if you do one of the above, your parents are likely to say "sue the bastards".
That, my friends, is the root cause of todays troubles.

 

[Paul_Stewart]

Absolutely spot on Smiffy. There is no kind of discipline or respect for authority any more.

But hey let's all get round and sympathise with the youngsters of today for being in this predicament, talk with them, understand their concerns and throw loads more of our taxpayers' money at making things easier for them.

 

[Tommo21]

I’ve read all this stuff and this idea we have loads of youngsters with no hope or prospects is bull. Time and time again I see youngsters come into my work and after a short while they don’t want to work, take time off, get the sack. I’ve seen some only work one day. Others left after a while because they had to get up early to get the bus.

What’s wrong today is young’s peoples demands as if they’re entitled to a blackberry phone, designer jeans and trainers. I know one family, all on benefits, they have multi room sky TV, quite often have carryouts delivered to the door and the laugh at people going to work. They complain that they struggle to get by each week but they cant see the sky package alone would feed the family. I see it as scum mentality.

Aged15 I left school at the end of the sixties, all the shipyards in Glasgow were shutting down and trying to get a job in a shop was hard enough. I walked the streets looking for work, knocking on doors, letting people know I’m keen, and with no Q it wasn’t easy. My two brothers done the same. I have a good job, one of my brothers has his own engineering firm and my other brother's retired from the army a regimental sergeant major. The point I’m making is there’s opportunities but many don’t want to move. They see people who have sky, playstations, fags and drink without having to work for it. If someone who has eat himself obese gets an 11 plate £26000 motobility Volvo (true) then others around, who pay for it, say what’s the point.

The bar of expectation needs to be lowered and youngsters, and many adults, need to be educated that you need to seek work and respect others of all age.

 

[chris661]

I’ve read all this stuff and this idea we have loads of youngsters with no hope or prospects is bull. Time and time again I see youngsters come into my work and after a short while they don’t want to work, take time off, get the sack. I’ve seen some only work one day. Others left after a while because they had to get up early to get the bus.

What’s wrong today is young’s peoples demands as if they’re entitled to a blackberry phone, designer jeans and trainers. I know one family, all on benefits, they have multi room sky TV, quite often have carryouts delivered to the door and the laugh at people going to work. They complain that they struggle to get by each week but they cant see the sky package alone would feed the family. I see it as scum mentality.

Aged15 I left school at the end of the sixties, all the shipyards in Glasgow were shutting down and trying to get a job in a shop was hard enough. I walked the streets looking for work, knocking on doors, letting people know I’m keen, and with no Q it wasn’t easy. My two brothers done the same. I have a good job, one of my brothers has his own engineering firm and my other brother's retired from the army a regimental sergeant major. The point I’m making is there’s opportunities but many don’t want to move. They see people who have sky, playstations, fags and drink without having to work for it. If someone who has eat himself obese gets an 11 plate £26000 motobility Volvo (true) then others around, who pay for it, say what’s the point.

The bar of expectation needs to be lowered and youngsters, and many adults, need to be educated that you need to seek work and respect others of all age.

Is the correct answer. I work 5 days a week and cant afford to get sky in but these people who sit on their arses all day can? If I want sky I have to do without something else but al these folk do is expect another handout.

 

[Golfmmad]

Golfmmad you are incorrect. Over the past two years (2009-2010) 18% of young people aged 16-24 were classed as NEET (Not in Education, Employment or Training. They were however not persistently unemployed. Only 1% were NEET for the entire period. The rest were in and out of short term opportunities. They were actively seeking work but struggled to get anything long term.

The pessimists among you will say they couldn't be bothered to stay in a job, thorough qualitative research tells a different story. One of young people not being given employment through lack of experience but being unable to get experience because no one will give them a job. And the longer that cycle continues the more suspiciously potential employers will treat them. Common perceptions of the unemployed are totally incorrect.

In relation to the 15% interest rate it has to be taken comparatively as a whole. Interest rates were extremely high but rent/mortages were not as high in relation to annual salary as they are now.

Tiger, first of all, you stated that 20% of young people were unemployed and are ready for work. Now you are quoting a different statistic and saying I'm wrong.

Maybe I could have said that "many" young people do not want to work, rather than the vast majority.
But of course I understand that many are looking and desperately want to work, it's a dreadful situation. My Son is part of those statistics, although he is working but not in a career job that he is more than capable of - but that's another debate.

Your point referring to 15% interest rates, did you live through that period of time, with a mortgage?
I can assure you that salary in relation to mortgage rates at the time was relative to what it is now. Did you read in your Social History books about negative equity and the disastrous affects that had on people?

Golfmmad.

 

[Parmo]

I hear a lot of people saying about the past, it was the same generations who ignore child abuse and police brutality against minorities. The children don’t have respect because the parents don’t have any self respect to pass on, where are the factory jobs? You know the ones where they employed millions in and feed the working classes? That’s right they have been given away to the EU in the 1980s, the working people who would have done these jobs have not gone away, they are now trapped in state benefits… It’s all well and good saying there are jobs out there for the individual but not for a generation, what you want a whole generation of part time shelf stackers and part time commission based sales execs?

There is no way I am justifying the actions of the looters and thugs, they are criminals and deserve the full wrath of the law.

When as a society we rip apart communities, this pulls down the fabric of society and we lose self respect and respect for others. If we had factory, docklands, mines and other jobs back in the UK then we would be a step closer to a health economy and a working nation not dependant on state benefits. My action on doing this is to buy as much UK products as I can, we should be making it very obvious to businesses we want British products and want them correctly labelled and non UK goods facing higher taxes. In doing this we open more SME’s and larger businesses will return here for the market and create more “working class” jobs and middle management ones.

I don’t know if the above will work but we have take action not ignore the problem of now and not invest in the future.

Buy British.

 

[toonarmy]

I agree with some of what you say. As a society we have created this by voting in consecutive governments which have created this through their own ideology, its not one party to blame its both. As a country WE vote these people into power and so WE are to blame.

Sorry, but this is just more of the 'someone else must be to blame' culture we live in. I'll wager that not one of the scumbags destroying the areas could even name you a cabinet/shadow minister. The riots are not a political statement; they are greed manifest. These individuals are responsible for their own actions and this is not attributable to a Government. Some of the frustration of society is, but the actions of these individuals is not.

Anyway, we have not listened to these people and now by not doing so we pay the price.

And what, precisely, do they have to say? 'Is bout respeck, innit and you don't haz none so I takes what is mine blud'. Rhetoric worthy of Churchill, Kennedy et al. I'm sure...

I still don't see the difference between these riots and the Libya ones, the ones we are killing innocent people over, does this mean Cameron should stand down?

Are you being deliberately stupid for effect? You cannot see the difference between a relatively small bunch of greedy morons smashing shop windows to steal trainers and TVs from an entire country desperate to throw off the shackles of a murdering dictator? To compare the UK riots with the Arab Spring is to compare a car accident to World War 2.

 

[RichardC]

And you think that the majority of todays youth would want to work in a mine!!!!!
The fact that Eastern European folk have work is because they want it and they are willing to do the low-paid jobs that most over here are not willing to do anymore. Again I know youngsters who don't want to work for less than 25k, yet have no qualifications worthy of a job in that bracket and I mean no good grade GCSE's let alone degrees etc.

 

[Tiger]

Golfmmad you are incorrect. Over the past two years (2009-2010) 18% of young people aged 16-24 were classed as NEET (Not in Education, Employment or Training. They were however not persistently unemployed. Only 1% were NEET for the entire period. The rest were in and out of short term opportunities. They were actively seeking work but struggled to get anything long term.

The pessimists among you will say they couldn't be bothered to stay in a job, thorough qualitative research tells a different story. One of young people not being given employment through lack of experience but being unable to get experience because no one will give them a job. And the longer that cycle continues the more suspiciously potential employers will treat them. Common perceptions of the unemployed are totally incorrect.

In relation to the 15% interest rate it has to be taken comparatively as a whole. Interest rates were extremely high but rent/mortages were not as high in relation to annual salary as they are now.

Tiger, first of all, you stated that 20% of young people were unemployed and are ready for work. Now you are quoting a different statistic and saying I'm wrong.

Maybe I could have said that "many" young people do not want to work, rather than the vast majority.
But of course I understand that many are looking and desperately want to work, it's a dreadful situation. My Son is part of those statistics, although he is working but not in a career job that he is more than capable of - but that's another debate.

Your point referring to 15% interest rates, did you live through that period of time, with a mortgage?
I can assure you that salary in relation to mortgage rates at the time was relative to what it is now. Did you read in your Social History books about negative equity and the disastrous affects that had on people?

Golfmmad.

I didn't change the statistic I cited a different one. The study we conducted for 2009 - 2010 was before the recent increase in youth unemployment (February 2011), which saw unemployment grow to marginally above 20%. As a result the period monitored 18% were unemployed.

I am fully aware of the disastrous implications of negative equity. Are you aware of the fact that the same problems are occuring in this country right now? Where people borrowed at 5 times salary to get on the property ladder and then the market crashed and now their houses are worth less than they paid for them?

You've taken umbridge to the fact I've criticised your point of view, fair enough. But your opinion does not correlate to fact. People make too many throwaway statements these days, with no evidence to substantiate their claims.

 

[Parmo]

'someone else must be to blame'

Something has change in society for these kids to be brought up like this, they didn’t just happen. You can either bury your head in the same or think of ways to break the cycle creating youngsters like this, and if you mention public floggings I will weep.

And what, precisely, do they have to say?

I don’t know ask them.

Are you being deliberately stupid for effect?

“"Cameron and his government must leave after the popular uprising against them and the violent repression of peaceful demonstrations by police," the state news agency Jana quoted Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaaim as saying.”

Fair point I say though tongue in cheek.

What I thought was strange is that the EDL are on the streets drunk and attacking ethnic minorities and throwing bottles at police under the banner of vigilantes yet no one is asking questions about them?

 

[Golfmmad]

Golfmmad I am saying that there is a negative cycle being perpetuated. Once again I assert I am not condoning the criminal activities merely trying to explain the socio-economic reasons that cause that breakdown in community, morality and ethical judgement. I am trying to find a long term solution to help prevent/minimise this type of thing in the future.

Let's flip this on it's head. Your point of view is that this is a feral underclass that spurns any opportunities to improve themselves, have no intention to work and are intent on criminal activity. If that's the case why don't we have riots like this all the time? And what is your recommendation for how we deal with the situation once the tension dies down?

Quite agree with your first paragraph.

Where did I say anything about "feral underclass that spurns any opportunity to work and intent on criminal activity"? Your words not mine, I quite simply said that they do not want to work.

You ought to re read Drawboys post, now that is reality for you.

What is my recommendation?

Give the Police more funding

More zero tolerance policies

Cut right back on immigration

Reform the Human Rights Act

Get rid of the compensation culture

Much more emphasis on the victims of crime

A radical review of the criminal justice system

The above are just a few, most have already been mentioned, that would certainly ease the tensions for law abiding people.

Now give us yours for the people that you support!

Golfmmad.

 

[lobthewedge]

What is my recommendation?

Give the Police more funding

More zero tolerance policies

Cut right back on immigration

Reform the Human Rights Act

Get rid of the compensation culture

Much more emphasis on the victims of crime

A radical review of the criminal justice system

The above are just a few, most have already been mentioned, that would certainly ease the tensions for law abiding people.

Agree with pretty much all of that, but would also include the need to find these people jobs and instill in them a work ethic and sense of responibility.

If no jobs can be found, they should work for thier dole, within their communities and you never know they might start to realise what pride in a society and community is all about.

 

[Tiger]

The feral underclass comment was harsh but at the same time you were bracketing me as some kind of fluffy liberal thug hugger and violence condoner

My focus would be on long term reform by:

improving support to young parents improving their capabilities as parents,

reform of the educational system to provide more assistance to those who struggle at school,

development of a nationwide apprenticeship framework for those who leave school at 16

greater investment in opportunities that enhance community cohesion,

development of the localism process to ensure we have a system whereby marginalised groups within communities feel they are able to participate in development of services,

review of the benefit system meaning that long term unemployed people are required to perform some form of structured community service to continue to receive benefits. This should enhance their skills and experience to make them more employable in the future

improved rehabilatation programmes for offenders

I believe in early intervention and prevention. It is cheaper and in my opinion much more likely to be effective in the long term.

 

[coolhand]

Tiger,

I agree that it is vital to offer support to those that want to improve their lives but I believe that the majority involved in the recent riots are not interested in what they can do for themselves.
They're only interested in what they can get out of society, believing that they are “entitled”.

It's the biggest problem facing our modern society, it leads to MP fiddling their expenses because they are entitled to top up their salary, footballers ignoring their marriage vows because they are entitled to a bit of fun and bankers messing up the global economy because their entitled to maximise their profits.

I don't know how to solve the problem, all I know is like a lot of people I've worked hard for what I've got and have never felt entitled to anything apart from a safe world in which to bring my kids up.

 

[Mungoscorner]

Lets not confuse genuinely impoverished families ,with the type of wasters Drawboy is speaking of.The area i grew up in is full of what i'd term "self unemployed".They have no ambition other than Weed,Stella,Hooded Tracksuits,Stolen Quads,and a Staffie.
There are however numerous families,who are trapped in poverty through lack of opportunity,and the destruction of our manufacturing industry.
When a city or town,that for decades has tens of thousands of its working population employed in Engineering,Car Factories and Mines,and then suddenly finds the Mines and the Factories closed,the Engineering Firms relocating abroad etc,what do the population do to find work ?
As previously stated,the vast majority of these idiots who are rioting and looting,couldn't give a monkeys about education and job opportunities,but there are people living in these communities who are honest,decent hard working people,who's children may be influenced and encouraged by the lowlifes in these communities,and its these people and there children who deserve to be heard,and not atrred with the same brush as the lowlifes,simply because of there postcode,and source of income.
I heard a very interesting statistic on Radio 2 whilst driving home from work today.
There are at present 1/2 Million job vacancies in this country.....2.5 Million unemployed,and another Million on Incapacity Benefit who the Government are planning to fast track back into work !!!!!!!!!