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"Root Cause"

Instead I hear cries of tear gas, rubber bullets, send the army in, shoot the scum, build bigger prisons, lock em up.
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Tiger, you seem a very intelligent and well balanced individual who volunteers to help disadvantaged kids. I salute you, a very worthy cause.

BUT.....

You live in Suffolk - correct?

How close were you to the riots?

The riots were all around me. I grew up in Croydon - I jokingly refer to it as my 'yard'. Seeing it resemble downtown Gaza has brought tears to my eyes.

From Thornton Heath (where I went to school) EVERY business has been smashed in and looted. Flats and houses have been torched. Thank Christ no lives have been lost as a result of this woeful disregard for human life.

Woolwich is just up the road. That place has been smashed to bits. My Sister lived there until very recently.

Yesterday I was in the TESCO in Welling. We were told to hurry up with our purchases as the shop was shutting early as a mob was walking from Welling to Bexleyheath smashing everything up. I had to explain to my five year old Daughter what was happening and why a mob was walking through Welling destroying everything. She asked me whether they'd come to our house. My response? "I hope not."

Now, I don't care what the root cause is. I have no interest in why this scum - and they are scum - are doing this. All I know is that I want the streets reclaimed from this sub-human race and I want them re-claimed now! I don't care how it's done - water cannon, rubber bullets, real bullets - I don't care - I just want my neighbourhood, my community, my life back to normal.

You mention that the rioters are from the poorer sections of the community. If that's the case, why are they better dressed than me? Why do they have better mobile phones than me? I think you're wrong - in fact, I know you're wrong. These people aren't poor - they've just got no regard for their fellow man.

We live in one of the best countries in the world. We have the ability to protest without the fear of the police/leaders crushing that protest. The riots of the past few days are NOTHING to do with protesting and everything to do with a complete breakdown in civil order and obidience.

I applaud you for your work with the kids - top stuff - but enough is enough - the Police need to return to their role of deterrent as, from what's been seen over the past four days, there's been no deterrent. I think water cannon, rubber bullets, etc would act as that very detterent.
 
Instead I hear cries of tear gas, rubber bullets, send the army in, shoot the scum, build bigger prisons, lock em up.
Click to expand...

Tiger, you seem a very intelligent and well balanced individual who volunteers to help disadvantaged kids. I salute you, a very worthy cause.

BUT.....

You live in Suffolk - correct?

How close were you to the riots?

The riots were all around me. I grew up in Croydon - I jokingly refer to it as my 'yard'. Seeing it resemble downtown Gaza has brought tears to my eyes.

From Thornton Heath (where I went to school) EVERY business has been smashed in and looted. Flats and houses have been torched. Thank Christ no lives have been lost as a result of this woeful disregard for human life.

Woolwich is just up the road. That place has been smashed to bits. My Sister lived there until very recently.

Yesterday I was in the TESCO in Welling. We were told to hurry up with our purchases as the shop was shutting early as a mob was walking from Welling to Bexleyheath smashing everything up. I had to explain to my five year old Daughter what was happening and why a mob was walking through Welling destroying everything. She asked me whether they'd come to our house. My response? "I hope not."

Now, I don't care what the root cause is. I have no interest in why this scum - and they are scum - are doing this. All I know is that I want the streets reclaimed from this sub-human race and I want them re-claimed now! I don't care how it's done - water cannon, rubber bullets, real bullets - I don't care - I just want my neighbourhood, my community, my life back to normal.

You mention that the rioters are from the poorer sections of the community. If that's the case, why are they better dressed than me? Why do they have better mobile phones than me? I think you're wrong - in fact, I know you're wrong. These people aren't poor - they've just got no regard for their fellow man.

We live in one of the best countries in the world. We have the ability to protest without the fear of the police/leaders crushing that protest. The riots of the past few days are NOTHING to do with protesting and everything to do with a complete breakdown in civil order and obidience.

I applaud you for your work with the kids - top stuff - but enough is enough - the Police need to return to their role of deterrent as, from what's been seen over the past four days, there's been no deterrent. I think water cannon, rubber bullets, etc would act as that very detterent.
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Me and AW have our differences on here from time to time but I agree word for word this time. I come not too far from Croydon and know it well (many a freezing Sunday morning playing footie at Purley Way). There was limited destruction close to my mum in Morden and places like Sutton and Colliers Wood. Not on the same scale but frightening enough

It was clearly pack mentality and imitating what they had seen on the TV. No root cause other than a desire to nick and cause damage. Sadly whether you work in schools, with disadvantaged kids or whatever, this has no basis in lack of opportunities, jobs or money. This is about aggravating the police and vandalism
 
Live in Suffolk. Work in London. Grew up in the East End. And as I have mentioned previously the explosion of the vigil into the initial riots was linked to issues around deprivation. It has subsequently been hijackedby the criminal underworld and sadly some individuals have chosen to join in.

Deterrent is insufficient in my eyes. Yes it will help resolve the problems now but it won't prevent them reappearing in the future. That's my issue no-one seems to think there is a wider societal problem. I would seriously love to sit down in a room with a group of you and show you some of the research and evaluation evidence I have.
 
Deterrent is insufficient in my eyes. Yes it will help resolve the problems now but it won't prevent them reappearing in the future. That's my issue no-one seems to think there is a wider societal problem. I would seriously love to sit down in a room with a group of you and show you some of the research and evaluation evidence I have.
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Sorry pal but you're not making much sense. You say that "Deterrent is insufficient" but then you say that "it will resolve the problems now". That's what we want!

The bones can be picked out of it at a later date and proper peaceful protests organised.

Rioting and looting won't win the socially disadvantaged any fans.
 
Right I'm gonna say it. Anyone and I mean anyone who tries to justify what has happened because of unemployment, lack of opportunity,social divides or for that matter any bloody reason social,political or otherwise needs a kick up the arse and to get a massive reality check. This was mob rule and pure criminality end of.
No one in this country is poor so get that out of your minds. If you are on benefits then you get free housing, no council tax, free prescriptions, free glasses, free milk for your kids, free school meals,free transport, a free cooker,fridge and effing microwaves,kettles and anything else they want, ever heard of a crisis loan oh

and money for fags and beer, If you choose to spend it on that.
People from abroad risk their lives every day under lorries, on top of trains, in boats just to get here and get the same level of FREE LIFE.
These savages who are looting and burning live free. They do not want employment they need life imprisonment they deserve life imprisonment I hope they get life imprisonment.
 
Deterrent is insufficient in my eyes. Yes it will help resolve the problems now but it won't prevent them reappearing in the future. That's my issue no-one seems to think there is a wider societal problem. I would seriously love to sit down in a room with a group of you and show you some of the research and evaluation evidence I have.
Click to expand...

Sorry pal but you're not making much sense. You say that "Deterrent is insufficient" but then you say that "it will resolve the problems now". That's what we want!

The bones can be picked out of it at a later date and proper peaceful protests organised.

Rioting and looting won't win the socially disadvantaged any fans.
Click to expand...

Let me rephrase. Popular perception seems to be that the perpetrators are 'scum'. Essentially that there is no helping these individuals. So when the police seize control the focus of the nation will be on clean up and prosecution. And when that is done, then what? I like everyone else want the police to regain control and the carnage to stop but amid the hysteria there is nonsensible debate as to why this happened in the first place. My fear is that no-one in authority will attempt to pick the pieces out of the debris and there will be no pressure from the population to encourage them to do so. My fear is if we don't act now something far worse waits around the corner.
 
Jesus don't send in the army they got messed about for 30 years in Northern Ireland...

Root cause... Hmmm... Maybe the free market which lead to Thatcher giving away working class jobs to Europe leaving a void in the work place? Then she created the welfare culture to hide the fact we had over 5 million unemployed, wasn't it she said "Unemployment is a price worth paying"? II remember in the 1990s girls getting pregnant to get a council house and to think this is a recent event is totally wrong.

Obviously there are many factors after that but then Blair started introducing HRA & bringing immigrants into the country.

Its a build up of issues since the 1960s maybe with regeneration of social housing, the destruction of true communities and family life when two parents had to work, a single parent was looked down on and no one gave you anything.

Who knows but at some point we have to bring this kids/chavs/thugs and the rest back into main stream society. The youth sector are facing up to 75% cuts, closures of youth clubs whilst richer areas can buy theirs, support workers sacked, the government have scrapped education maintenance allowance which is only offered to families on less than a household of £25k, its about £30 a week to help kids get books, food and transport to college and not forgetting Uni fee's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o&amp%3Bsns=tw

Something the BBC will not show again
 
Tiger I think you are too sensible for your own good matey.
A message needs to be sent to these hoods now, if they get away with a slap on the wrist they will not hesitate to do it again. If they behave like cretins, treat them like cretins. A nice blue dye in the water guns will highlight them long enough that most can be rounded up. Mace or tear gas would help too.
 
Drawboy it is not justification it is explanation massive difference and in fact in terms of poverty based on Office for National Statistics 20% of the country are calculated as living in poverty. This entire debate has frustrated the hell out of me as people refuse to be open to fact. Your impressions of this country and the current economic situation are flawed. That's not based on my opinion but well respected academic research. But believe what you want, it's your prerogative. But if you wish to launch a critique of my standpoint please be accurate and bring some facts rather than hearsay.
 
Jesus don't send in the army they got messed about for 30 years in Northern Ireland...

Root cause... Hmmm... Maybe the free market which lead to Thatcher giving away working class jobs to Europe leaving a void in the work place? Then she created the welfare culture to hide the fact we had over 5 million unemployed, wasn't it she said "Unemployment is a price worth paying"? II remember in the 1990s girls getting pregnant to get a council house and to think this is a recent event is totally wrong.

Obviously there are many factors after that but then Blair started introducing HRA & bringing immigrants into the country.

Its a build up of issues since the 1960s maybe with regeneration of social housing, the destruction of true communities and family life when two parents had to work, a single parent was looked down on and no one gave you anything.

Who knows but at some point we have to bring this kids/chavs/thugs and the rest back into main stream society
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Finally! I agree this is problem is a long term political legacy. Parmo you may have just saved me from insanity!
 
bring some facts rather than hearsay.
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But the problem, Tiger, is that this is such an emotive issue and for the "ordinary" man in the street with a sense of right and wrong, no matter how you dress this up, the looting and rioting are just plain wrong. To try and justify this, in my opinion, is frankly ridiculous. People want this issue sorted NOW, for God's sake it is people lives and business' that are going up in ruins, yet you won't criticise the hooligans :D
 
Drawboy it is not justification it is explanation massive difference and in fact in terms of poverty based on Office for National Statistics 20% of the country are calculated as living in poverty. This entire debate has frustrated the hell out of me as people refuse to be open to fact. Your impressions of this country and the current economic situation are flawed. That's not based on my opinion but well respected academic research. But believe what you want, it's your prerogative. But if you wish to launch a critique of my standpoint please be accurate and bring some facts rather than hearsay.
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Tiger, i appreciate your input, a couole of questions:

1. What is the definition of poverty used? I suspect if youd taken the same measure in previous decades it would be similar if not higher than 20%. Do you have any trend data?

2. What happens with the info / research? I'm not aware of it. The vast majority of people only have what's going on now as evidence or a frame of reference which is why they may have a different viewpoint.
 
bring some facts rather than hearsay.
Click to expand...

But the problem, Tiger, is that this is such an emotive issue and for the "ordinary" man in the street with a sense of right and wrong, no matter how you dress this up, the looting and rioting are just plain wrong. To try and justify this, in my opinion, is frankly ridiculous. People want this issue sorted NOW, for God's sake it is people lives and business' that are going up in ruins, yet you won't criticise the hooligans :D
Click to expand...

I think we are seeing opinions from 2 separate spectrum's of the racial divide.Many don't agree with what the man is saying but it is what he believes in and fair play to that.

Life's too short and the Jocks are 2-1 up so everything in life is rosey! ;)
 
bring some facts rather than hearsay.
Click to expand...

But the problem, Tiger, is that this is such an emotive issue and for the "ordinary" man in the street with a sense of right and wrong, no matter how you dress this up, the looting and rioting are just plain wrong. To try and justify this, in my opinion, is frankly ridiculous. People want this issue sorted NOW, for God's sake it is people lives and business' that are going up in ruins, yet you won't criticise the hooligans :D
Click to expand...

I agree with you, no one is justifying it but there needs to be reason and as a society we need to fix what is broken. The prisons are full so what are you expecting these people to get? 5 years? Nar a few days in prison and then out with community service.
 
Drawboy it is not justification it is explanation massive difference and in fact in terms of poverty based on Office for National Statistics 20% of the country are calculated as living in poverty. This entire debate has frustrated the hell out of me as people refuse to be open to fact. Your impressions of this country and the current economic situation are flawed. That's not based on my opinion but well respected academic research. But believe what you want, it's your prerogative. But if you wish to launch a critique of my standpoint please be accurate and bring some facts rather than hearsay.
Click to expand...

Poverty to the 20% you are talking about is like a life of luxury to others in real poverty. These youths that are poverty stricken are walking around in clothing that totals the contents of my golf bag, that to me is not poverty. There are people that we hear are in poverty that live in 5-6 bedroom houses and get near on 25-30k in benefits. As I mentioned in my previous post my mother came here as an immigrant with nothing and was told she was entitled to nothing, but she got a job cleaning to help setup her's and our families lives.

I keep hearing that there are root causes and that we need to give, give, give to these people to empower them. That is what has given them the reason to think that they can get away with what they do. When I was young I could not imagine telling a grown man or woman to RESPECT me, I had to EARN that.

You will always be chasing your tail trying to help some of these individuals as they listen more the their peer group than their own families. I know very bright young lads in estates that deliberately fail exams so that they are not shunned by their peers.
 
Drawboy it is not justification it is explanation massive difference and in fact in terms of poverty based on Office for National Statistics 20% of the country are calculated as living in poverty. This entire debate has frustrated the hell out of me as people refuse to be open to fact. Your impressions of this country and the current economic situation are flawed. That's not based on my opinion but well respected academic research. But believe what you want, it's your prerogative. But if you wish to launch a critique of my standpoint please be accurate and bring some facts rather than hearsay.
Click to expand...

60,000,000 people live in England. 20% of that is 12,000,000 people - that's an awful lot of people.

What's the definition of 'living in poverty'?

Every country will always have poor people - it's a fact of life. This country, unlike many other countries, allows these people a voice.

As an Indian man who'd just had his shop looted in Birmingham said, "these people are supposed to be impoverished and lacking in prospects - firstly, they're young so they have excellent prospects and secondly, if they want to see impoverished then they should come with me to India, then they'd see impoverished."

Too many excuses made for these people - but then that's what England are brilliant at, aren't we. Rather than punish we look for excuses.

"Oh sorry Mrs Jennings for your burgled home. Little Johnny didn't mean to but his Dad left home when he was 6 months old and he's a bit down about it"

or.....

"Sorry Mrs Hardy for the death of your son. Andy didn't mean to stab him twelve times through the heart but the leader of his gang told him to do it and he didn't want to lose face"

Tiger, there's always been disadvantaged kids. My parents tell me horror stories from the post war years when fathers were missing because of the war and the mothers had to fight tooth and nail to get the best for their kids. The kids didn't riot and loot then. Why? Because they had respect and the police acted as a deterrent.

You say that you'd like to get some of us in a room to debate this issue. That's a brilliant idea. I'd be an eye opener for you, us and your 'charges'.
 
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