Roll Up Group Handicaps

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Isn't the real issue about Roll up's, Swindles etc having a system in place to further handicap previous winners of the 'pot'? And E.G. determining that that equates to having 2 handicaps!

Playing to the rules of golf, holing out etc and putting a card in really shouldn't be a problem.

Someone ( maybe Ori?) suggested earlier that everyone play off their official handicap, submit their cards and last weeks winner (for e.g.) is deducted the 'penalty for excellence adjustment' post round. No one in officialdom is any the wiser.

I cannot think of any reason why the adjustment a player accumulates through winning in previous weeks cannot be subtracted from his stableford score post round. At the moment if a player in the rollup is ‘doing a card’ for WHS as well as one for the rollup, they play the round with two handicaps - and I can see how that should be a no-no.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I cannot think of any reason why the adjustment a player accumulates through winning in previous weeks cannot be subtracted from his stableford score post round. At the moment if a player in the rollup is ‘doing a card’ for WHS as well as one for the rollup, they play the round with two handicaps - and I can see how that should be a no-no.

For us it’s very simple

For anyone that would like to submit a card for WHS they use the app which has their HI on it - enter gross scores etc etc

For the swindle

We use the good old fashioned paper card with whatever their swindle HC is and swindle scores are done from there - works very nicely

 

[Orikoru]

It's a bit daft of them to say we can't have 'two handicaps', yet I play off 12 in comps and 13 in my social rounds thanks to their silly 95% rule. Hypocrites much?

 

[RichA]

As I suspected ignoring important parts for the sake of arguing and maintaining a position

For ease I have copied and pasted post #79 - it is very clear and a directive from EG. My club also attended an EG workshop hence the decision to treat our roll up as an organised event (we are a recognised roll up and as such participate with a team in the clubs annual roll up group torunament each summer where each roll up including weekdays and weekends put a side in and it is better ball stableford to decide the winner). We are one of the last groups to start putting cards in as we were operating a roll up handicap system which has now been vetoed. It is abundantly clear that clubs and EG insist on playing fully to the rules of golf and therefore no gimmees and cards to count. It isn't hard to understand

I attended an EG Workshop near Gloucester last week. Their firmly expressed view was that a Club has an obligation to treat Roll Ups / Swindles as Competitions and to ensure that the scores are recorded on WHS. Also that linked to this there can be only One Handicap for each Golfer. They expressed the view that if a Club Handicaps and Competitions Committee fails to "police" this issue it is failing in it`s duties under WHS.

And almost all of these events are played on a Measured Course, with Compliant Golf Equipment and according to the Rules of Golf - so they are Competitions that are Acceptable for Handicapping. They should therefore be a part of the Competitors "Scoring History" for WHS purposes in the view of EG. They were very clear that failure to address this aspect of Club Golf was aiding and abetting handicap manipulation.

This is going to be "news" to many golfers and educating everyone to a "new normal" isn`t going to be easy but it is definitely what EG want us to all be doing.

I realise that this "Post" goes against many of the comments in this thread - but it is definitely where EG are coming from and in time may cause serious issues for Clubs who fail to follow the EG lead.

I think it will largely depend upon the type of club where we are members.
If it's a proper traditional members club, owned by members and run by committees of elected volunteers, then EG might be able to exert its will.

But a huge number of clubs do not follow this model.

Both clubs where I have been a member and most where I've played as a visitor are proprietary. They are owned by individuals or corporate entities.
The members are customers of the owner.
The "club" and it's committees are parallel but separate. Their influence over the owner is negligible.
The pro has a financial arrangement with the owner, runs the shop and driving range, gives lessons and manages tee time booking but, beyond that, is nothing to do with the members.

In respect of EG, the owner, the pro, the club committee and the members, who has responsibilities to whom?
The relationship between the various entities is too nuanced for any party to start cleanly enforcing its rules. Especially if it's only representatives are a tiny number of unpaid volunteers who will perhaps feel that their main responsibility is to their paying members, neighbours and friends rather than EG.

Even if they felt inclined to involve themselves in the activities of societies and groups that operate their own competitions, how can they gather evidence and conduct enforcement?
Do the committee threaten their members with enforcement action or do they threaten the owners of their golf club that EG will suspend their affiliation?

 

[wjemather]

Question for handicap secretaries or those with a committee role...

Can a club suspend a member's handicap if they do not comply with a firmly set out club directive in respect of such as, oh I don't know - let's say - handing in a rollup card for WHS purposes.

Given waiting lists for membership in my part of the world I suggest that there would not be any great exodus of members if such a requirement was imposed on rollups.

Yes. Where a player is repeatedly failing (or refusing) to fulfil their responsibilities under Appendix A of the Rules of Handicapping, the Handicap Committee will follow their disciplinary process - education, re-education, warnings and ultimately withdrawal of Handicap Index for a period of time, perhaps with conditions attached for reinstatement. They may also be other sanctions under a club code of conduct.

EG also has the power to withdraw the right to administer handicaps from a club if the handicap committee is refusing to fulfil it's responsibilities. Of course, they would go through a similar education, re-education, warnings process before reaching that stage. Such action would affect all members, not just the handful who think they're special.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I think it will largely depend upon the type of club where we are members.
If it's a proper traditional members club, owned by members and run by committees of elected volunteers, then EG might be able to exert its will.

But a huge number of clubs do not follow this model.

Both clubs where I have been a member and most where I've played as a visitor are proprietary. They are owned by individuals or corporate entities.
The members are customers of the owner.
The "club" and it's committees are parallel but separate. Their influence over the owner is negligible.
The pro has a financial arrangement with the owner, runs the shop and driving range, gives lessons and manages tee time booking but, beyond that, is nothing to do with the members.

In respect of EG, the owner, the pro, the club committee and the members, who has responsibilities to whom?
The relationship between the various entities is too nuanced for any party to start cleanly enforcing its rules. Especially if it's only representatives are a tiny number of unpaid volunteers who will perhaps feel that their main responsibility is to their paying members, neighbours and friends rather than EG.

Even if they felt inclined to involve themselves in the activities of societies and groups that operate their own competitions, how can they gather evidence and conduct enforcement?
Do the committee threaten their members with enforcement action or do they threaten the owners of their golf club that EG will suspend their affiliation?

I think a full blown members are even more likely to ignore it

For me it’s EG trying to flex and clearly not understanding their membership and clearly not understanding why most just play the sport for a bit of fun

They know imo that there are those out there that are manipulating the system and there will always be ways to do that - their app made it easier

And they think by getting more to use it will prob help in some way

Most clubs and their members will carry on regardless how they have done over the last 4 years or so since it all started

And when it comes to swindles - some will use the WHS HI , some will use their own method - the second is harmless to the social sport if golf

 

[RichA]

Such action would affect all members, not just the handful who think they're special.

That's a bit pejorative.
I don't think participants in a friendly social comp think they're particularly special.

The FA don't involve themselves in a friendly in-house club match that's outside of the club's participation in the league pyramid or cup competition.
The ECB don't involve themselves in a friendly in-house club match outside of the cricket club's membership of an affiliated district league.

What makes EG so special that they have to involve themselves in our social golf?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

That's a bit pejorative.
I don't think participants in a friendly social comp think they're particularly special.

The FA don't involve themselves in a friendly in-house club match that's outside of the club's participation in the league pyramid or cup competition.
The ECB don't involve themselves in a friendly in-house club match outside of the cricket club's membership of an affiliated district league.

What makes EG so special that they have to involve themselves in our social golf?

Exactly that

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I think a full blown members are even more likely to ignore it

For me it’s EG trying to flex and clearly not understanding their membership and clearly not understanding why most just play the sport for a bit of fun

They know imo that there are those out there that are manipulating the system and there will always be ways to do that - their app made it easier

And they think by getting more to use it will prob help in some way

Most clubs and their members will carry on regardless how they have done over the last 4 years or so since it all started

And when it comes to swindles - some will use the WHS HI , some will use their own method - the second is harmless to the social sport if golf

here a player is repeatedly failing (or refusing) to fulfil their responsibilities under Appendix A of the Rules of Handicapping, the Handicap Committee will follow their disciplinary process - education, re-education, warnings and ultimately withdrawal of Handicap Index for a period of time, perhaps with conditions attached for reinstatement. They may also be other sanctions under a club code of conduct.

All very self explanatory and if people are participating in a recognised and organised roll up there is an obligation under Appendix A to be submitting regular cards. I would hope a members club, perhaps more so than a proprietary club, would abide by the process and the handicap committee follow through on their obligations. I think it would see a very quick end to handicap manipulation and people with a minimum number of cards, some perhaps not for some time and not reflecting current standard turning up and winning comps. I am sure you'll continue to argue the point to the nth degree even though it has been laid out so crack on. I can't be bothered when you absolutely refuse to see the recommended course of actions and want to post (at least the post count is going up 28 today already !!!!! )

 

[Slab]

EG are maybe also giving themselves a ‘get out of jail card’ to throw onto the fire when criticism of WHS comes their way

i.e don’t bitch at us about whs if a player wins a board comp off xx handicap (despite them cleaning up in roll-ups through the year) only to find the whs Index stayed the same/actually went up!. We implored you to put these scores in but you threw a wobbly at the very thought of it

 

[Arthur Wedge]

here a player is repeatedly failing (or refusing) to fulfil their responsibilities under Appendix A of the Rules of Handicapping, the Handicap Committee will follow their disciplinary process - education, re-education, warnings and ultimately withdrawal of Handicap Index for a period of time, perhaps with conditions attached for reinstatement. They may also be other sanctions under a club code of conduct.

All very self explanatory and if people are participating in a recognised and organised roll up there is an obligation under Appendix A to be submitting regular cards. I would hope a members club, perhaps more so than a proprietary club, would abide by the process and the handicap committee follow through on their obligations. I think it would see a very quick end to handicap manipulation and people with a minimum number of cards, some perhaps not for some time and not reflecting current standard turning up and winning comps. I am sure you'll continue to argue the point to the nth degree even though it has been laid out so crack on. I can't be bothered when you absolutely refuse to see the recommended course of actions and want to post (at least the post count is going up 28 today already !!!!! )

Again regurgitating roles and responsibilities etc makes no difference to how people want to play their social golf

I know exactly what the “recommended course of actions” is


We run our swindle the way we want to run it to ensure everyone enjoys themselves

The players will follow any “responsibilities” they need to when they play in organised official club competitions

As for the snide remark about post counts - remember you have constantly complained about people sniping etc on here and yet you are the only one doing it

 

[wjemather]

That's a bit pejorative.
I don't think participants in a friendly social comp think they're particularly special.

The FA don't involve themselves in a friendly in-house club match that's outside of the club's participation in the league pyramid or cup competition.
The ECB don't involve themselves in a friendly in-house club match outside of the cricket club's membership of an affiliated district league.

What makes EG so special that they have to involve themselves in our social golf?

Really? How would you describe those who put their own (usually misguided and ill-informed) self-interest ahead of everyone else?

Aside from being an invalid comparison (a one-off in-house friendly match and regular organised rollup competitions), you are mistaken about the reach of both the FA and the ECB.

 

[Dunesman]

Yes. Where a player is repeatedly failing (or refusing) to fulfil their responsibilities under Appendix A of the Rules of Handicapping, the Handicap Committee will follow their disciplinary process - education, re-education, warnings and ultimately withdrawal of Handicap Index for a period of time, perhaps with conditions attached for reinstatement. They may also be other sanctions under a club code of conduct.

EG also has the power to withdraw the right to administer handicaps from a club if the handicap committee is refusing to fulfil it's responsibilities. Of course, they would go through a similar education, re-education, warnings process before reaching that stage. Such action would affect all members, not just the handful who think they're special.

But thats not going to happen really.
There will be no sanctioning of any person or club. Rules written in the theoretical bubble are pointless if they dont win the engagment and will of grass roots players. It doesnt matter how precise or defined the rule is. Withdrawing rights etc are just words with a complete disconnect from how we really play golf, and not worth the pixels they are typed on.
Rules have to come from the ground up - develop the rules to have a framework for how members want to play.
Dont import foreign rules, half baked, and try to impose them on people who dont want them, just because.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

EG are maybe also giving themselves a ‘get out of jail card’ to throw onto the fire when criticism of WHS comes their way

i.e don’t bitch at us about whs if a player wins a board comp off xx handicap (despite them cleaning up in roll-ups through the year) only to find the whs Index stayed the same/actually went up!. We implored you to put these scores in but you threw a wobbly at the very thought of it

Most of the people we have seen that have won these big events or opens etc have put in a lot of GP scores to increase their handicaps to give them a better chance of winning

It’s why clubs , opens and even EG have restrictions in places before of GP scores

If someone wants to manipulate their handicap they will

99% of people are sensible , they put in cards , they have a HI that’s close to their ability and if they have a swindle HC it won’t be far from their HI

 

[RichA]

here a player is repeatedly failing (or refusing) to fulfil their responsibilities under Appendix A of the Rules of Handicapping, the Handicap Committee will follow their disciplinary process - education, re-education, warnings and ultimately withdrawal of Handicap Index for a period of time, perhaps with conditions attached for reinstatement. They may also be other sanctions under a club code of conduct.

All very self explanatory and if people are participating in a recognised and organised roll up there is an obligation under Appendix A to be submitting regular cards. I would hope a members club, perhaps more so than a proprietary club, would abide by the process and the handicap committee follow through on their obligations. I think it would see a very quick end to handicap manipulation and people with a minimum number of cards, some perhaps not for some time and not reflecting current standard turning up and winning comps. I am sure you'll continue to argue the point to the nth degree even though it has been laid out so crack on. I can't be bothered when you absolutely refuse to see the recommended course of actions and want to post (at least the post count is going up 28 today already !!!!! )

You original asked in relation to what used to be unofficial comps that EG are now insisting be treated as official club comps. The question was in relation to the maintenance of an unofficial second handicap.
Now you're talking about manipulation of the player's official WHS handicap. Surely that's more likely to occur in GP golf outside of any comp, be that official or unofficial. Who would deliberately lose a comp of any sort just to give themselves an advantage in the next one? I can't see the logic.

 

[Backache]

Really? How would you describe those who put their own (usually misguided and ill-informed) self-interest ahead of everyone else?

English golf is how I describe them.

 

[Slab]

Most of the people we have seen that have won these big events or opens etc have put in a lot of GP scores to increase their handicaps to give them a better chance of winning

It’s why clubs , opens and even EG have restrictions in places before of GP scores

If someone wants to manipulate their handicap they will

99% of people are sensible , they put in cards , they have a HI that’s close to their ability and if they have a swindle HC it won’t be far from their HI

Isn't that exactly the point? You cant see the 'millions' won through doing well in unreported roll-ups/swindle wins. These same ppl can hide in plain sight

 

[RichA]

Really? How would you describe those who put their own (usually misguided and ill-informed) self-interest ahead of everyone else?

Aside from being an invalid comparison (a one-off in-house friendly match and regular organised rollup competitions), you are mistaken about the reach of both the FA and the ECB.

I don't get the first bit. The only self-interest is enjoying social golf. Don't see what impact it has on anyone outside of that group.

The second bit is just wrong, in my experience. The FA and ECB are mostly just keen to ensure that clubs are looking after kids and more vulnerable participants responsibly. They actually go out of their way to encourage fun, less competitive formats.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Isn't that exactly the point? You cant see the 'millions' won through doing well in unreported roll-ups/swindle wins. These same ppl can hide in plain sight

I’m just waiting for the arrival of my new Aston from my £22.50 I won in swindles last year

Maybe we need to put in more than £2 to get access to the millions

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Really? How would you describe those who put their own (usually misguided and ill-informed) self-interest ahead of everyone else?

Aside from being an invalid comparison (a one-off in-house friendly match and regular organised rollup competitions), you are mistaken about the reach of both the FA and the ECB.

You are aware that it’s just a bunch of mates playing together social in a swindle