Roll Up Group Handicaps

[Crow]

Then you are wrong.
Players in Swindles/roll ups irrespective of format are only allowed to use their WHS Playing Handicap. If they persist in running their own handicap system they risk having their handicaps withdrawn as they are contravening the rules of handicapping which apply to competitive golf at Clubs affiliated to England Golf. Organised, regular roll ups are considered by EG to be competitive golf, therefore the rules apply. This is exactly what was confirmed directly in person by EG as per the previous posts in this thread.

I don’t think I can make it any clearer than that

Why don't England Golf just send an email to all golfers telling them of this edict, then there'll be no need for all this cloak and dagger stuff.

I'm sure all/some golfers will happily comply.

 

[wjemather]

Can you tell me if you expect a club to enforce this and also how are they intending on enforcing it
“Regular roll ups are considered by EG”
What if the people playing in this social events don’t “consider” it to be competitive golf

Pretending people don't know what competitive or competition means is a pretty weak argument.

Exactly that
People can regurgitate what EG consider etc
But if a bunch of guys want to play social golf for a £1 or £2 or £5 and they use their own HC system for cuts etc then there is very little that a club can do about it
Also when I look at the three swindles I play in
Most of the HCs are close to your club
Some who are on Rich veins of form get themselves big cuts etc and ones playing shocking get shots back and it’s systems put in place that look like they are more balanced in terms of who picks up the money etc
We also find that people also make their own choice about putting a card in. The ones that are playing well seem to do it

If balancing the payout over time is the aim (as opposed to having fair competition in each individual event) you may as well just give everyone their entry fee back as a participation prize.

Playing well = put scores in/feed vanity handicap; not playing well = don't put scores in/protect vanity handicap. Sounds like passive handicap manipulation to me.

 

[wjemather]

Why don't England Golf just send an email to all golfers telling them of this edict, then there'll be no need for all this cloak and dagger stuff.

I'm sure all/some golfers will happily comply.

It has been communicated since day one. It's only relatively recently that have EG started pushing a bit harder.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Pretending people don't know what competitive or competition means is a pretty weak argument.


If balancing the payout over time is the aim (as opposed to having fair competition in each individual event) you may as well just give everyone their entry fee back as a participation prize.

Playing well = put scores in/feed vanity handicap; not playing well = don't put scores in/protect vanity handicap. Sounds like passive handicap manipulation to me.

Of course it sounds like that to you

I wouldn’t expect for you to be thinking any differently

The good thing is people are all wired differently and will continue to play their social golf in the manner that suits them not EG

 

[Backache]

What intrigues me is as follows:

There are a couple of swindles at my club each week. The weekend one is certainly organised between mates, the weekday one has many regular faces, but open to anyone to turn up and play. There are about 20-40 players in the field in general. Clearly, all those people that play (and it could be pushing 100 people if you count those that just turn up every now and then) are happy to submit their scores, just like they would in a club run competition.

So, you can see why I completely don't understand the argument some are making about the WHS Police, being forced into something you don't want to do, etc. For anyone making that argument, or if there are many others like that, what would you have done if you were a member of my club? Demonstrated against submitting scores? Thrown the toys out of the pram? Tried to convince the very many members who are happy to put in a card to demonstrate against it? Try and force some rule changes to ensure rounds are not acceptable for handicap?

If everyone in your club is happy with that thats fine it's entirely up to the members of your club.
Locally I know that some would not find it fine. Personally I would probably organise my own group roll up with those members and play to our own rules.

 

[Dunesman]

Maybe a radical thought given that it hasnt been tried before, but what about closing WHS and forming a half a dozen unrelated handicap systems for different world regions. Each entirely autonomous, and with full freedom to devise their own handicap, competitions, and regulatory protocols. Each could then be optimised and tailored to the golfing culture, traditions, and preferences of the golfers in them. We could have one say, for Britain and Ireland, who share a common heritage and habits at grass roots golf club level. The USA could optimise theirs for few competitions, the tendency to record scores for casual rounds, and favouring of mulligans and gimmes even whe marking a card.
Everyone would be happy.

 

[Swango1980]

Maybe a radical thought given that it hasnt been tried before, but what about closing WHS and forming a half a dozen unrelated handicap systems for different world regions. Each entirely autonomous, and with full freedom to devise their own handicap, competitions, and regulatory protocols. Each could then be optimised and tailored to the golfing culture, traditions, and preferences of the golfers in them. We could have one say, for Britain and Ireland, who share a common heritage and habits at grass roots golf club level. The USA could optimise theirs for few competitions, the tendency to record scores for casual rounds, and favouring of mulligans and gimmes even whe marking a card.
Everyone would be happy.

I appreciate that was a humorous comment, although that was an interesting and separate debate that has been made on Golf Monthly forums previously. WHS, did we need it?

But, for the sake of this thread, having a different handicap system in different regions is clearly not relevant. Because, apart from one chap in Canada, I think everyone else in this thread is in the UK. And clearly we have differences of opinion.

What you might actually wish for is that there are several different systems, and every individual golfer can sign up to the handicap system that suits them best. If you are a golfer who is happy to have scores count when they go out and play a competition (regardless of who organises it), then just sign up to the system that is pretty much WHS as it is now. If you are a golfer who only wishes to sign up to a system that includes scores from club run competitions, and absolutely nothing else counts, then sign up to that sort of system. You could have several iterations, tailored as to how you want, acceptability of GP scores, MLS used or not, etc. Golfers could then compete in divisions, based on what handicap system they have elected to use.

It is a whacky idea that would cause more issues than solutions, but if we are brainstorming, there is never a bad idea in a brainstorming session

 

[D-S]

Can you tell me if you expect a club to enforce this and also how are they intending on enforcing it

“Regular roll ups are considered by EG”

What if the people playing in this social events don’t “consider” it to be competitive golf

For the second time in this thread, it is not me saying this, it is England Golf. I am just the messenger. So it is not up to me how a club is expected to enforce it.

However just a thought, perhaps advising members by their preferred contact medium of England Golf’s wishes might be a good way to start. Personally I find education is always the best first step, compulsion should only be a last resort.

There are quite clear signs as to whether something is an organised roll-up/swindle playing a competition, they include (but dont necessarily have to fulfil every criteria) a regular reserved tee slot or playing time, perhaps a handicap system, an organiser present on the day, money being put into a pot, cards being handed in, prizes being awarded etc. etc. - if you want it more simply almost everything you would expect of a ‘normal’ competition,

 

[D-S]

Maybe a radical thought given that it hasnt been tried before, but what about closing WHS and forming a half a dozen unrelated handicap systems for different world regions. Each entirely autonomous, and with full freedom to devise their own handicap, competitions, and regulatory protocols. Each could then be optimised and tailored to the golfing culture, traditions, and preferences of the golfers in them. We could have one say, for Britain and Ireland, who share a common heritage and habits at grass roots golf club level. The USA could optimise theirs for few competitions, the tendency to record scores for casual rounds, and favouring of mulligans and gimmes even whe marking a card.
Everyone would be happy.

Any thoughts about who would formulate, control and administer this new handicap system?

 

[Swango1980]

Any thoughts about who would formulate, control and administer this new handicap system?

I assume there are one or 2 people in here that would be happy to administer it? I can't imagine they'd allow the current stuffed shirts to administer it, or the jobsworths on Club Committees

 

[Arthur Wedge]

For the second time in this thread, it is not me saying this, it is England Golf. I am just the messenger. So it is not up to me how a club is expected to enforce it.

However just a thought, perhaps advising members by their preferred contact medium of England Golf’s wishes might be a good way to start. Personally I find education is always the best first step, compulsion should only be a last resort.

There are quite clear signs as to whether something is an organised roll-up/swindle playing a competition, they include (but dont necessarily have to fulfil every criteria) a regular reserved tee slot or playing time, perhaps a handicap system, an organiser present on the day, money being put into a pot, cards being handed in, prizes being awarded etc. etc. - if you want it more simply almost everything you would expect of a ‘normal’ competition,

I’m actually quite happy with the ways things work for our social golf and our club run competitive golf

It’s very much a nice balance that people seem to enjoy

Now as it’s a hobby or pastime that we have decided to use for enjoyment ( as opposed to a living ) then the balance is very much key for me

This week I have three games

Tomorrow it’s a little swindle - fun , gimmies etc , using that swindle HC

Saturday - our early morning swindle - pick and place everywhere , gimmies - using that swindle HC

Sunday - monthly Stableford , preffered lies on closely mown areas , putting out , scores onto the ISV

All good

 

[D-S]

I’m actually quite happy with the ways things work for our social golf and our club run competitive golf

It’s very much a nice balance that people seem to enjoy

Now as it’s a hobby or pastime that we have decided to use for enjoyment ( as opposed to a living ) then the balance is very much key for me

This week I have three games

Tomorrow it’s a little swindle - fun , gimmies etc , using that swindle HC

Saturday - our early morning swindle - pick and place everywhere , gimmies - using that swindle HC

Sunday - monthly Stableford , preffered lies on closely mown areas , putting out , scores onto the ISV

All good

Thank you for the reply although I would just say that it has nothing to do with the post that you were replying to as it seems to be answering a question that wasn’t asked.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Thank you for the reply although I would just say that it has nothing to do with the post that you were replying to as it seems to be answering a question that wasn’t asked.

It was more in response to EGs “communication” and way they advise when it comes to how people should act on a golf course and actually being more than fine with not worrying to much about what EG advise

 

[RichA]

For the second time in this thread, it is not me saying this, it is England Golf. I am just the messenger. So it is not up to me how a club is expected to enforce it.

However just a thought, perhaps advising members by their preferred contact medium of England Golf’s wishes might be a good way to start. Personally I find education is always the best first step, compulsion should only be a last resort.

There are quite clear signs as to whether something is an organised roll-up/swindle playing a competition, they include (but dont necessarily have to fulfil every criteria) a regular reserved tee slot or playing time, perhaps a handicap system, an organiser present on the day, money being put into a pot, cards being handed in, prizes being awarded etc. etc. - if you want it more simply almost everything you would expect of a ‘normal’ competition,

The issue lies with the wording that EG use and have local committees disseminate.
Within legislation, should is generally used as guidance; must is used when to do otherwise is illegal.
EG use the word must a lot in their rules without any enforcement structure to back it up. Especially when many thousands of those to whom the rules apply when playing recreational golf clearly have no intention of complying.
What can they or their representatives do about it realistically? Nothing. So why make themselves look weak and silly?

Reminds me of a football pitch sized play area in a housing estate I know in east London. Signs around it read "No Ball Games." Good luck to anyone trying to enforce it.

 

[Dunesman]

Any thoughts about who would formulate, control and administer this new handicap system?

The USGA for the US, ths four home unions for us, etc.

 

[rulie]

The USGA for the US, ths four home unions for us, etc.

The world of golf has moved on from that scenario.

 

[D-S]

The USGA for the US, ths four home unions for us, etc.

The Four Home Unions have already chosen WHS as their preferred handicap system and are invested in it - so all of a sudden you want them to tear this up, dismantle the existing structure, invent a new one, develop the software and administer it?

If this is your plan, for your own peace of mind, please don't get your hopes up.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

For the second time in this thread, it is not me saying this, it is England Golf. I am just the messenger. So it is not up to me how a club is expected to enforce it.

However just a thought, perhaps advising members by their preferred contact medium of England Golf’s wishes might be a good way to start. Personally I find education is always the best first step, compulsion should only be a last resort.

There are quite clear signs as to whether something is an organised roll-up/swindle playing a competition, they include (but dont necessarily have to fulfil every criteria) a regular reserved tee slot or playing time, perhaps a handicap system, an organiser present on the day, money being put into a pot, cards being handed in, prizes being awarded etc. etc. - if you want it more simply almost everything you would expect of a ‘normal’ competition,

BIB describes the roll up I play in precisely…soooo…it seems to me we might find club really pushing for our scores to be submitted for WHS. I am not clear whether or not EG are telling clubs that this sort of round MUST be submitted for WHS handicap purposes. If they are the club does not comply with that request and let the roll up continue ‘as is’ then what sanctions are the club exposing themselves to be at risk from.

Apologies if this has been answered already - but there has been lots of discussion around why it might be wrong-headed in the context of social golf, and the truth is that the club is powerless to accede to members wishes and complaints if EG mandate it, and you’ve described my roll up exactly.

If the club comes to us with the need to change I want to be informed to help us understand that it’s not the club but EG.

 

[rulie]

BIB describes the roll up I play in precisely…soooo…it seems to me we might find club really pushing for our scores to be submitted for WHS. I am not clear whether or not EG are telling clubs that this sort of round MUST be submitted for WHS handicap purposes. If they are the club does not comply with that request and let the roll up continue ‘as is’ then what sanctions are the club exposing themselves to be at risk from.

Apologies if this has been answered already - but there has been lots of discussion around why it might be wrong-headed in the context of social golf, and the truth is that the club is powerless to accede to members wishes and complaints if EG mandate it, and you’ve described my roll up exactly.

If the club comes to us with the need to change I want to be informed to help us understand that it’s not the club but EG.

Maybe an obvious question, but why wouldn't you want your score submitted for handicap purposes?

 

[RichA]

The Four Home Unions have already chosen WHS as their preferred handicap system and are invested in it - so all of a sudden you want them to tear this up, dismantle the existing structure, invent a new one, develop the software and administer it?

If this is your plan, for your own peace of mind, please don't get your hopes up.

Personally, I like WHS.
I'm just against every round of social golf having to be recorded for handicapping purposes.
Competition golf and social golf are totally separate activities for me. I'm sure I'm not alone.