Roll Up Group Handicaps

[Arthur Wedge]

Just to add to this, it was also made very clear that if all the other baseline criteria are met but the roll up instigate a rule that does not comply with the Rules of Golf, e.g. Preferred Lies in the General Area in winter or gimmees, that the Club must insist on the Rules of Golf being followed and that all putts must be holed out etc. and, of course, scores returned for handicap. This is the case for all roll ups/ swindles.

However, the insistence on one handicap and the threat of handicap withdrawal for non compliance even applies equally to roll ups not playing ‘acceptable golf formats’ such as team 2 out of 3, 3 out of 4, waltz etc. etc.

We play gimmies , we play pick and place through the green in winter

We also play a 4 bbb match play during a singles comp

The club can insist all they want , they can’t force people , how someone wants to play their social golf is entirely up to them

 

[RichA]

It sounds like some people are on a power trip. They need reminding the people play for various reasons but a key one is plain fun. Not everything needs to be rigid (and I don't even play in a roll up )

Yep. I don't play roll ups or swindles. I play the occasional comp but don't really care.
Like many, I play golf with friends for recreation. I can do that without membership of England Golf or an official handicap.
Official comp participation at my place is usually about 60 entrants out of a membership of 500.
If they choose to get officious about it I'm sure there are thousands of golfers who only play friendly golf and will happily give up their EG/WHS handicaps. Having one isn't mandatory to play golf or be a member of a club. I know you need a WHS HI to play at some courses, but the majority of courses don't require it and the majority of golfers probably aren't travelling around playing opens.
It's a potential own goal for the sake of clamping down on people doing their own thing.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sounds like you are non-compliant. We are looking to change ours with effect from the next roll up on the 8th March

That’s going to create one almighty stooshie. That said our main midweek rollup has moved to all cards being submitted - so we know it’s still in the background. Noticeably the numbers playing in that rollup have dropped off significantly. The same will no doubt happen to our Saturday one…a pity as it’s a great format and group for new members getting to know others - and I fear that it will wither away.

Unintended consequences….and so I think ‘…forgive them, for they know not what they are doing’ applies.

 

[jim8flog]

I attended an EG Workshop near Gloucester last week. Their firmly expressed view was that a Club has an obligation to treat Roll Ups / Swindles as Competitions and to ensure that the scores are recorded on WHS. Also that linked to this there can be only One Handicap for each Golfer. They expressed the view that if a Club Handicaps and Competitions Committee fails to "police" this issue it is failing in it`s duties under WHS.

And almost all of these events are played on a Measured Course, with Compliant Golf Equipment and according to the Rules of Golf - so they are Competitions that are Acceptable for Handicapping. They should therefore be a part of the Competitors "Scoring History" for WHS purposes in the view of EG. They were very clear that failure to address this aspect of Club Golf was aiding and abetting handicap manipulation.

This is going to be "news" to many golfers and educating everyone to a "new normal" isn`t going to be easy but it is definitely what EG want us to all be doing.

I realise that this "Post" goes against many of the comments in this thread - but it is definitely where EG are coming from and in time may cause serious issues for Clubs who fail to follow the EG lead.

Virtually every swindle I play in does not do this. They all give putts on the green and when they are playing in 4s (in a singles swindle comp) pairs will give advice to each other.

Unless the handicap authorities adopt 'Plays Like' scores will not be acceptable.

 

[jim8flog]

I wonder, as an awful lot of roll-ups have cash prizes (call it what you want that’s what it is). Could it mean that the players can’t use their whs hancicap anyway, since (most) AMs can’t play a handicap comp for cash

The cash/pot can be considered as a sweepstake so playing for it is acceptable.

 

[Backache]

I think players need a mindset change/adjustment. The baseline is ‘All acceptable golf format events played on a Measured Course, with Compliant Golf Equipment and according to the Rules of Golf are Competitions or General Play games that are Acceptable for Handicapping.’

If we accept that as the baseline, then it is quite straight forward as it is a definitive standard.

If a player(s) do not wish the score to be acceptable then there has to be a deviation away from the standard. It really is as simple as that. We, as golfers, believe that we should all obey the rules, we don’t get to pick and choose. We easily accept the Rules of Golf but we seem to not fully accept the Rules of Handicaps.

The rules of golf are universal and applied equally across formal competitions. However they have never been applied across informal golf
New rules of handicap are not universal, apply differently across different domains but now a bunch of committee mandarins are trying to determine how informal golf should be played . Its terminal idiocy.

 

[Backache]

Roll Ups etc are social formats they should be played however people wish to play them as long as they are not impinging on the enjoyment of other people on the course. It is no business of anyone . If there is a side bet that every third putt should be played with the butt of the club in a snooker stroke , whether you've been given a bit of string to cut for close putts etc etc, people enjoy variants that have nothing to do with the rules of golf or handicapping it is a leisure activity as well as a sport. . It is frankly controlling ****wittery.

 

[Swango1980]

For years golfers moaned about a bandit always winning the swindle, and that their handicap was rubbish. They put handicap committees under pressure to give an extra chop to these players because they never play in comps to get a cut. Or, they had to derive their own handicap system themselves.

Now the Authorities are requesting golfers put all these scores on to their record where possible, and Clubs will try and start to implement it. You'd think golfers would now be happy, except the bandits, because now these players will get chopped for playing well. But no, the handicap authorities and club committees are stuffed shirts.

I guess the lesson is, whatever anyone does, there will always be people that get wound up. I would agree, however, that I doubt the handicap authorities would give a Club a slap on the wrist if a group had their own handicaps. We have a group at ourr club who has done this for decades. They still do, albeit they also all put their scores onto their WHS record, which satisfies that requirement of handicapping. So, is that not just the solution. Everyone in your roll up enters the score onto WHS, but for your prizes just use your own system? Out club put it on the Club V1 system for them, so they can all enter scores like a normal comp, and they are posted on howdidido (albeit the results are not their actual results due to handicap differences)

 

[Backache]

For years golfers moaned about a bandit always winning the swindle, and that their handicap was rubbish. They put handicap committees under pressure to give an extra chop to these players because they never play in comps to get a cut. Or, they had to derive their own handicap system themselves.

They might have done in a few places , most people just adjust their handicaps in social golf to stop people winning too much.. Trying to control every form of social golf from a central committee is plain stupidity. Our own roll ups play approximately according tot he rules of golf but there is also a degree of expediency to facilitate a good pace of play or even altering the holes played if bad weather threatens etc. It is social golf enjoyed by all who play. Why on earth should some committee based miles away with no idea of the local pressures decide how we should procede?

 

[wjemather]

Do people consider these rollups/swindles to be an "organised competition"? To me, most of those mentioned seem to be very well organised and would meet any definition of a competition.

That being the case, why would anyone want to play in an organised competition using an unofficial handicap system that is fundamentally inequitable and probably includes mechanisms designed to significantly advantage and/or disadvantage certain players?

But if not, what makes them "not organised" or "not a competition"?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Do people consider these rollups/swindles to be an "organised competition"? To me, most of those mentioned seem to be very well organised and would meet any definition of a competition.

That being the case, why would anyone want to play in an organised competition using an unofficial handicap system that is fundamentally inequitable and probably includes mechanisms designed to significantly advantage and/or disadvantage certain players?

But if not, what makes them "not organised" or "not a competition"?

The swindles I play in seem to work very well when it comes to be “equitable” - not sure why some would be disadvantaged

 

[Crow]

Do people consider these rollups/swindles to be an "organised competition"? To me, most of those mentioned seem to be very well organised and would meet any definition of a competition.

That being the case, why would anyone want to play in an organised competition using an unofficial handicap system that is fundamentally inequitable and probably includes mechanisms designed to significantly advantage and/or disadvantage certain players?

But if not, what makes them "not organised" or "not a competition"?

Roll ups and swindles are competitions but they're casual affairs, if the organisers wish them to be non-qualifying then they should be allowed to make them so.

I don't think I'm alone in that the only counting scores I have on WHS are those from formal competitions.

I don't wish for every round to be played to the level of intensity I usually apply to a formal competition round, and I'm sure that there are many like me.

If I had to submit every card then my handicap would go up and I would, therefore, be classed as a bandit as my competition scores are better than my casual scores.

This is an embarrassment for EG and WHS, if they want to address the issue of dodgy handicaps there are far better ways of doing it.

 

[nickjdavis]

Do people consider these rollups/swindles to be an "organised competition"? To me, most of those mentioned seem to be very well organised and would meet any definition of a competition.

That being the case, why would anyone want to play in an organised competition using an unofficial handicap system that is fundamentally inequitable and probably includes mechanisms designed to significantly advantage and/or disadvantage certain players?

But if not, what makes them "not organised" or "not a competition"?

My definition is that if it is the club organising things (e.g. from the pro-shop or the committee, or if it is the sort of roll-up/swindle that ANYONE can just turn up and play in without notice) then it can/could/should be considered an organised competition.

If its a group of mates turning up at a regular time each week and "doing their thing" then it is not an organised comp. The authorities can not be telling individuals what they must do when they turn up to play a casual round of golf with their mates which has some low value side bets included for a bit of fun.

 

[Backache]

Do people consider these rollups/swindles to be an "organised competition"? To me, most of those mentioned seem to be very well organised and would meet any definition of a competition.

That being the case, why would anyone want to play in an organised competition using an unofficial handicap system that is fundamentally inequitable and probably includes mechanisms designed to significantly advantage and/or disadvantage certain players?

But if not, what makes them "not organised" or "not a competition"?

The roll ups I play in are well organised but they are not played according to the strict rules of golf , they are for enjoyment, why on earth should they be according to strict rules of Hcap? We quite often have new people playing without a Hcap they are assigned a handicap at commencement of play, whose business is it to tell us what to do or why we should do it?

PS your statement that the Hcap is fundamentally inequitable is frankly absurd, it may or may not be equitable according to how it has been decided. Whatever ones beliefs on the equity of the WHS no one can possibly state that there is only one way of determining an equitable handicap.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

My definition is that if it is the club organising things (e.g. from the pro-shop or the committee, or if it is the sort of roll-up/swindle that ANYONE can just turn up and play in without notice) then it can/could/should be considered an organised competition.

If its a group of mates turning up at a regular time each week and "doing their thing" then it is not an organised comp. The authorities can not be telling individuals what they must do when they turn up to play a casual round of golf with their mates which has some low value side bets included for a bit of fun.

Spot on

Unfortunately for some ( let’s call them the WHS HC fun police ) - they don’t like that

 

[nickjdavis]

Roll ups and swindles are competitions but they're casual affairs, if the organisers wish them to be non-qualifying then they should be allowed to make them so.

I don't think I'm alone in that the only counting scores I have on WHS are those from formal competitions.

I don't wish for every round to be played to the level of intensity I usually apply to a formal competition round, and I'm sure that there are many like me.

If I had to submit every card then my handicap would go up and I would, therefore, be classed as a bandit as my competition scores are better than my casual scores.

This is an embarrassment for EG and WHS, if they want to address the issue of dodgy handicaps there are far better ways of doing it.

I've just looked at the 18 players who make up our "Sunday Skins" group...

14 of them have submitted between 17 and 39 scores for handicapping in the last 12 months....ALL of them from Competition play. The other 4 players have submitted 30(5 GP), 21 (1 GP), 48 (22GP) and 9 (2GP) scores in the last 12 months.

I'd say that as a group we are submitting plenty of scores from acceptable formats to maintain handicaps that are representative of our abilities and that there is no justification for forcing/encouraging this particular subset of golfers to submit more scores.

Oh yeah...we play skins as our preferred format....this is not a format where you are trying to build your best score. Playing skins golfers take risks that they would not take in normal strokeplay formats, knowing that often, 3 points is needed to win a skin and a 2 point par is about the same value as a double bogey.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

We play gimmies , we play pick and place through the green in winter

We also play a 4 bbb match play during a singles comp

The club can insist all they want , they can’t force people , how someone wants to play their social golf is entirely up to them

I thought it was only right and proper to follow whatever rules a club put in place?

Are you now saying people should be able to pick and choose choose?

 

[RichA]

Do people consider these rollups/swindles to be an "organised competition"? To me, most of those mentioned seem to be very well organised and would meet any definition of a competition.

That being the case, why would anyone want to play in an organised competition using an unofficial handicap system that is fundamentally inequitable and probably includes mechanisms designed to significantly advantage and/or disadvantage certain players?

But if not, what makes them "not organised" or "not a competition"?

I've just checked and 150 of my club's 700 members don't even have handicaps.
If that's a true reflection of England as a whole then maybe 20% of golf club members don't possess an EG/WHS handicap.
If some of those folks are playing in unofficial roll ups and swindles with unofficial handicaps maintained by the group's organiser then which bit of the arrangement is the business of the club's handicap committee or EG?
Does their participation make the whole event a non-official comp or does EG still believe it has the right to the data of its participating members?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I thought it was only right and proper to follow whatever rules a club put in place?

Are you now saying people should be able to pick and choose choose?

The rules are followed when playing in qualifying or club arranged competitions

What I do during my social golf surely is up to me and my playing partners

 

[Backache]

I thought it was only right and proper to follow whatever rules a club put in place?

Are you now saying people should be able to pick and choose choose?

At no time in previous golf history has a club determined how golf should be played when played socially other than behaviour dress standards etc. This is an absurd idea of the slavish following of a decision whereby the Hcap system is meant to wag the tail and determine how social golf is played.