Roll Up Group Handicaps

[Dunesman]

but it is definitely what EG want us to all be doing.

Tail wagging the dog. EG should be administering what we want to do, not telling us what they want us to be doing.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I attended an EG Workshop near Gloucester last week. Their firmly expressed view was that a Club has an obligation to treat Roll Ups / Swindles as Competitions and to ensure that the scores are recorded on WHS. Also that linked to this there can be only One Handicap for each Golfer. They expressed the view that if a Club Handicaps and Competitions Committee fails to "police" this issue it is failing in it`s duties under WHS.

And almost all of these events are played on a Measured Course, with Compliant Golf Equipment and according to the Rules of Golf - so they are Competitions that are Acceptable for Handicapping. They should therefore be a part of the Competitors "Scoring History" for WHS purposes in the view of EG. They were very clear that failure to address this aspect of Club Golf was aiding and abetting handicap manipulation.

This is going to be "news" to many golfers and educating everyone to a "new normal" isn`t going to be easy but it is definitely what EG want us to all be doing.

I realise that this "Post" goes against many of the comments in this thread - but it is definitely where EG are coming from and in time may cause serious issues for Clubs who fail to follow the EG lead.

EG and clubs won’t be able to force it

Golfers can play how they like in their swindles or friendly matches etc

It is a perfect example of how out of touch EG is with the inner workings of a golf club and its members

 

[Crow]

Non conforming golf clubs are easy to find, just put one in your bag, or carry 15 clubs, for swindles.

 

[Billysboots]

EG and clubs won’t be able to force it

Golfers can play how they like in their swindles or friendly matches etc

It is a perfect example of how out of touch EG is with the inner workings of a golf club and its members

Agreed.

Quite aside from anything else, our swindle/roll up very often introduces a bit of additional fun into the format.

A “waltz” through the different tees during the same round, the occasional mulligan, and other minor tweaks so that it’s not all straightforward medal or stableford. But the final scores all contribute towards informal handicaps in our organiser’s little blue book.

Good luck policing that one, EG.

 

[nickjdavis]

I attended an EG Workshop near Gloucester last week. Their firmly expressed view was that a Club has an obligation to treat Roll Ups / Swindles as Competitions and to ensure that the scores are recorded on WHS. Also that linked to this there can be only One Handicap for each Golfer. They expressed the view that if a Club Handicaps and Competitions Committee fails to "police" this issue it is failing in it`s duties under WHS.

12 blokes play together across 3 tee times booked at the same time every week. They turn up at the club, have a coffee and a bacon roll, maybe a Full English before drawing balls out of a hat to decide who is playing with who, and go and play 18 holes. One of the guys decides that there will also be a couple of nearest the pin holes.

4 hours later they meet up in the bar, have a couple of pints, ask each other who scored what and give the top two or three golfers and those who won nearest the pin a couple of quid. They then go home and lob the scorecards in the bin never to be seen again.

How is the club supposed to "police" that? If the club try to get involved then all that will happen is that the twelve blokes will finish their round and drive off to the local pub. Eventually they will even stop coming up for a pre round coffee.

Clubs cannot force people to submit what effectively are casual rounds of golf, for handicap purposes.

...and ultimately the solution is simple....the folks involved simply turn round and say..."we give gimme's" so the rounds are not acceptable scores.

Its all a nonsense, dreamed up by someone with nothing better to do who is out of touch with the reality of daily life of golf clubs.

 

[fenwayrich]

I attended an EG Workshop near Gloucester last week. Their firmly expressed view was that a Club has an obligation to treat Roll Ups / Swindles as Competitions and to ensure that the scores are recorded on WHS. Also that linked to this there can be only One Handicap for each Golfer. They expressed the view that if a Club Handicaps and Competitions Committee fails to "police" this issue it is failing in it`s duties under WHS.

And almost all of these events are played on a Measured Course, with Compliant Golf Equipment and according to the Rules of Golf - so they are Competitions that are Acceptable for Handicapping. They should therefore be a part of the Competitors "Scoring History" for WHS purposes in the view of EG. They were very clear that failure to address this aspect of Club Golf was aiding and abetting handicap manipulation.

This is going to be "news" to many golfers and educating everyone to a "new normal" isn`t going to be easy but it is definitely what EG want us to all be doing.

I realise that this "Post" goes against many of the comments in this thread - but it is definitely where EG are coming from and in time may cause serious issues for Clubs who fail to follow the EG lead.

The problem is that EG, and the Clubs, cannot force golfers to play according to the Rules of Golf in swindles/roll ups. If players book tee times, and there is no official club competition, or if it is voluntary, they are at liberty to do what they want. It could be purely social with no competitive aspect or a friendly roll up, perhaps with gimmes, using whatever scoring system the participants devise.

How can the authorities impose a requirement that all 'competitive golf', regardless of who organises it, must be played according to the Rules with official WHS handicaps? My understanding is that they want to attract more golfers, not drive the current players away!

 

[NearHull]

I think players need a mindset change/adjustment. The baseline is ‘All acceptable golf format events played on a Measured Course, with Compliant Golf Equipment and according to the Rules of Golf are Competitions or General Play games that are Acceptable for Handicapping.’

If we accept that as the baseline, then it is quite straight forward as it is a definitive standard.

If a player(s) do not wish the score to be acceptable then there has to be a deviation away from the standard. It really is as simple as that. We, as golfers, believe that we should all obey the rules, we don’t get to pick and choose. We easily accept the Rules of Golf but we seem to not fully accept the Rules of Handicaps.

 

[Slab]

I wonder if we’re heading towards a scenario where every tee time booked will automatically count towards handicap unless the player(s) manually opt-out & choosing a reason i.e playing solo, not to RoG, invalid format, no handicap etc

 

[D-S]

I think players need a mindset change/adjustment. The baseline is ‘All acceptable golf format events played on a Measured Course, with Compliant Golf Equipment and according to the Rules of Golf are Competitions or General Play games that are Acceptable for Handicapping.’

If we accept that as the baseline, then it is quite straight forward as it is a definitive standard.

Just to add to this, it was also made very clear that if all the other baseline criteria are met but the roll up instigate a rule that does not comply with the Rules of Golf, e.g. Preferred Lies in the General Area in winter or gimmees, that the Club must insist on the Rules of Golf being followed and that all putts must be holed out etc. and, of course, scores returned for handicap. This is the case for all roll ups/ swindles.

However, the insistence on one handicap and the threat of handicap withdrawal for non compliance even applies equally to roll ups not playing ‘acceptable golf formats’ such as team 2 out of 3, 3 out of 4, waltz etc. etc.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Just to add to this, it was also made very clear that if all the other baseline criteria are met but the roll up instigate a rule that does not comply with the Rules of Golf, e.g. Preferred Lies in the General Area in winter or gimmees, that the Club must insist on the Rules of Golf being followed and that all putts must be holed out etc. and, of course, scores returned for handicap. This is the case for all roll ups/ swindles.

However, the insistence on one handicap and the threat of handicap withdrawal for non compliance even applies equally to roll ups not playing ‘acceptable golf formats’ such as team 2 out of 3, 3 out of 4, waltz etc. etc.

It sounds like some people are on a power trip. They need reminding the people play for various reasons but a key one is plain fun. Not everything needs to be rigid (and I don't even play in a roll up )

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Our Saturday roll up/swindle is competed off rollup handicaps. Winners pot is distributed and rollup handicap are applied according to numbers playing. Typically at the moment we have about 30. That means pot is divided best three s/ford scores. If numbers are less then the pot is divided between best two scores. Entry is £1.

Cuts are applied according to £s won - 0.1/£. So if I am in the winners enclosure and win…say…£8, I have a 0.8 cut. This is aimed at distributing the weekly ‘prize funds’ around the group…but as cuts are not based on scores it means that winners of small amounts of £ are not cut the same as winners of large amounts.

Organisers record all scores (we have a little trophy for best player over the season) and cuts are recorded and are aggregated on a week-by-week basis. Each week my rollup handicap is my PH for the tee being played from less my aggregated cut (if any). A standard rollup round is not recorded for WHS handicap purposes.

Of course some wish to put in a GP card when playing in the rollup. They have to make sure they always hole out (rollup allows gimmes) and for the purposes of their WHS card they score off their club handicap. Club also asks us to play one in four of our rollups as a WHS round…which we do in same way as if we were putting in a GP card. Rollup handicaps are applied alongside for rollup purposes, but we record our scores on our system for WHS.

 

[D-S]

Our Saturday roll up/swindle is competed off rollup handicaps. Winners pot is distributed and rollup handicap are applied according to numbers playing. Typically at the moment we have about 30. That means pot is divided best three s/ford scores. If numbers are less then the pot is divided between best two scores. Entry is £1.

Cuts are applied according to £s won - 0.1/£. So if I am in the winners enclosure and win…say…£8, I have a 0.8 cut. This is aimed at distributing the weekly ‘prize funds’ around the group…but as cuts are not based on scores it means that winners of small amounts of £ are not cut the same as winners of large amounts.

Organisers record all scores (we have a little trophy for best player over the season) and cuts are recorded and are aggregated on a week-by-week basis. Each week my rollup handicap is my PH for the tee being played from less my aggregated cut (if any). A standard rollup round is not recorded for WHS handicap purposes.

Of course some wish to put in a GP card when playing in the rollup. They have to make sure they always hole out (rollup allows gimmes) and for the purposes of their WHS card they score off their club handicap. Club also asks us to play one in four of our rollups as a WHS round…which we do in same way as if we were putting in a GP card. Rollup handicaps are applied alongside for rollup purposes, but we record our scores on our system for WHS.

This sounds like exactly the sort of roll up that EG are trying to clamp down on and insist on no gimmes and all rounds to be acceptable for h/c and input onto WHS.

 

[Slab]

I wonder, as an awful lot of roll-ups have cash prizes (call it what you want that’s what it is). Could it mean that the players can’t use their whs hancicap anyway, since (most) AMs can’t play a handicap comp for cash

 

[rulefan]

However, the insistence on one handicap and the threat of handicap withdrawal for non compliance even applies equally to roll ups not playing ‘acceptable golf formats’ such as team 2 out of 3, 3 out of 4, waltz etc. etc.

How did you draw this conclusion? Surely 'acceptable' only relates to the acceptability for qualifying for handicapping purposes (Rule 2).
It does not mean an acceptable format for playing. If play is not in an "acceptable format" (defined) the Rules of Handicapping do not apply.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This sounds like exactly the sort of roll up that EG are trying to clamp down on and insist on no gimmes and all rounds to be acceptable for h/c and input onto WHS.

Indeed I know that some clubs with rollups require all rollup rounds to be run according to the rules of golf and submitted for WHS purposes.

However for as long as the club is happy for us to continue with one of four being submitted for WHS (note this was a compromise to all being submitted), then we’ll continue playing gimmes (our only variation from the rules of golf). I think the issue EG may well have is those organised rounds that meet the basic WHS criteria for an acceptable round but that are then not played to the rules of golf and so can’t be submitted.

Personally I wouldnt be bothered if all rounds had to be submitted - but many I play with are very opposed to it. The only change would be ‘no gimmes’ and for me that should be no big deal whatsoever. And nothing about submitting a card playing off my WHS club handicap means we cannot have a separate rollup handicap and a separate rollup comp. Same gross scores with no gimmes, just a different handicap allowance based upon our WHS club CH.

 

[D-S]

How did you draw this conclusion? Surely 'acceptable' only relates to the acceptability for qualifying for handicapping purposes (Rule 2).
It does not mean an acceptable format for playing. If play is not in an "acceptable format" (defined) the Rules of Handicapping do not apply.

This is exactly the question I asked of the EG Handicap Manager leading the seminar. I asked what a Club should do if a roll up, who were playing a non acceptable format e.g. team 2 out of 3, and were using a roll up/swindle handicap, refused to use their WHS HI and insisted on using their own.
I was directly told (I asked the question on the mic in the seminar) that if they continued to refuse after 'education' then handicaps should be withdrawn.
As I said in an earlier post this was greeted by muttering across the room but they couldn't have been clearer.

 

[D-S]

Indeed I know that some clubs with rollups require all rollup rounds to be run according to the rules of golf and submitted for WHS purposes.

However for as long as the club is happy for us to continue with one of four being submitted for WHS (note this was a compromise to all being submitted), then we’ll continue playing gimmes (our only variation from the rules of golf). I think the issue EG may well have is those organised rounds that meet the basic WHS criteria for an acceptable round but that are then not played to the rules of golf and so can’t be submitted.

No they are insistent that rounds that meet almost all of the basic criteria except one, in your example gimmes, must be 'forced' to change this and submit cards.

 

[Crow]

Indeed I know that some clubs with rollups require all rollup rounds to be run according to the rules of golf and submitted for WHS purposes.

However for as long as the club is happy for us to continue with one of four being submitted for WHS (note this was a compromise to all being submitted), then we’ll continue playing gimmes (our only variation from the rules of golf). I think the issue EG may well have is those organised rounds that meet the basic WHS criteria for an acceptable round but that are then not played to the rules of golf and so can’t be submitted.

Couldn't it be argued that you're still playing to the rules of golf even when giving gimmees?

Isn't there some crazy rule about "most likely score for hole"? That's in effect all you're doing.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No they are insistent that rounds that meet almost all of the basic criteria except one, in your example gimmes, must be 'forced' to change this and submit cards.

My club tried this - tbh we thought it was the club being over-zealous in its interpretation of what WHS and EG require. The push back from (some influential) members playing in the rollup was furious. We had long and heated debate and negotiation with the club and compromised.

I think time will change things and we’ll eventually accept the requirement, especially if it is mandated by WHS/EG.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Indeed I know that some clubs with rollups require all rollup rounds to be run according to the rules of golf and submitted for WHS purposes.

However for as long as the club is happy for us to continue with one of four being submitted for WHS (note this was a compromise to all being submitted), then we’ll continue playing gimmes (our only variation from the rules of golf). I think the issue EG may well have is those organised rounds that meet the basic WHS criteria for an acceptable round but that are then not played to the rules of golf and so can’t be submitted.

Personally I wouldnt be bothered if all rounds had to be submitted - but many I play with are very opposed to it. The only change would be ‘no gimmes’ and for me that should be no big deal whatsoever. And nothing about submitting a card playing off my WHS club handicap means we cannot have a separate rollup handicap and a separate rollup comp.

Sounds like you are non-compliant. We are looking to change ours with effect from the next roll up on the 8th March