Roll Back Discussion

Backsticks

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Interesting view on it.
Inter alia, the view that distance always mattered may be too easily accepted and not quite so true.

 

Alan Clifford

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Lets use Winged Foot as an example. A club that has 2 courses on site.

They lost complete access to the championship course in 2006, and the other course was closed for 4 months after the event, which was used for corporate hospitality.

Part of the whole 'ethos' of the ball change was that the USG and R&A did not want to impact the recreational golfer in any way. Growing the rough, narrowing fairways, planting trees....it all impacts the recreational golfer. Changing the ball that will be used in Elite events does not impact the recreational golfer.

I'd disagree with that. Growing the rough, narrowing fairways, planting trees should disadvantage amateur golfers if they can't keep their 150 yard tee shots on the fairway. As Rory said, hitting the long tee shots and keeping it on the fairway takes skill. There should be real penalties, gravel bunkers perhaps, if you go for the long shot that is beyond your capabilities. 2 inches of easy rough is not rough enough.
 

Alan Clifford

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Will enough punters be willing to buy it to make it financially viable to put them out for sale..?
Extra advertising costs, packaging etc etc..don't forget they'll be giving hundreds of thousands away to Pros every week..3 dozen each per tournament or something like that.
That's a lot of cost to recoup on a ball that goes shorter....
There's no real incentive for the ball manufacturers to make these balls...and what if no manufacturer does make them?
What are they going to do then?
Won't happen but it would be quite funny....
Bottom line is that the manufacturers will recoup their extra costs from us....we'll end up paying for this..

"...and what if no manufacturer does make them?" I made a similar point on twitter. It could become interesting.
 

Wabinez

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I'd disagree with that. Growing the rough, narrowing fairways, planting trees should disadvantage amateur golfers if they can't keep their 150 yard tee shots on the fairway. As Rory said, hitting the long tee shots and keeping it on the fairway takes skill. There should be real penalties, gravel bunkers perhaps, if you go for the long shot that is beyond your capabilities. 2 inches of easy rough is not rough enough.

i’m struggling to see your point here?

I say growing the rough impacts recreational golfers.
you say you disagree, and that rough impacts the recreational golfer.
 

Wabinez

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It impacts all golfers .
but you can just widen the fairways after the event.

sure….but it can take a while to get the rough growing in the first place.

the fact that growing the rough, narrowing fairways etc favours the long hitters even more seems to be being forgotten about. If the fairways are narrower, then more pros are playing from the rough. if more pros are playing from the rough, then those who hit it further will have a huge advantage.

introducing the MLR for the ball, to me, doesn’t go far enough. It should be larger reductions, and pushed out across all formats of the game.
 

Crow

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"We want a wound balata ball!"

"We want a wound balata ball!"

"We want a wound balata ball!"

"We want a wound balata ball!"

(Or at least a ball with those characteristics)

It would increase the enjoyment of every golfer, from beginner to Pro, from junior to senior, both male and female.

Most golfers have never even hit one so don't knock it.
 

Region3

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"We want a wound balata ball!"

"We want a wound balata ball!"

"We want a wound balata ball!"

"We want a wound balata ball!"

(Or at least a ball with those characteristics)

It would increase the enjoyment of every golfer, from beginner to Pro, from junior to senior, both male and female.

Most golfers have never even hit one so don't knock it.

I don’t think it would make the game more enjoyable for my mate off 20 that has a 20yd slice with a modern ball, or anyone for that matter that knifes a shot and has to put another £5 ball into play.
 

BiMGuy

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"We want a wound balata ball!"

"We want a wound balata ball!"

"We want a wound balata ball!"

"We want a wound balata ball!"

(Or at least a ball with those characteristics)

It would increase the enjoyment of every golfer, from beginner to Pro, from junior to senior, both male and female.

Most golfers have never even hit one so don't knock it.

It really wouldn’t.
 

Orikoru

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I know this was said a lot of pages back (I've skipped a few now) but I really wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen, or barely features. Given that they've only brought it in as a 'local rule' type thing so it'll be optional? Unless I've understood that wrong. So LIV will obviously pass on it so they can claim that all the big hitters are on their tour. PGA will then be tempted to pass on it so they don't lose more golfers (who want to play the ball of their choosing) and viewers (who want to see long drives) to LIV. The only time I can picture it maybe being used is by some of the Open venues who want to protect their courses from being overpowered. I just don't see it as a workable solution on regular tour events though. If LIV didn't exist then the PGA would be free to 'roll back the ball', but they do so there's now a risk involved.
 

Wabinez

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I know this was said a lot of pages back (I've skipped a few now) but I really wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen, or barely features. Given that they've only brought it in as a 'local rule' type thing so it'll be optional? Unless I've understood that wrong. So LIV will obviously pass on it so they can claim that all the big hitters are on their tour. PGA will then be tempted to pass on it so they don't lose more golfers (who want to play the ball of their choosing) and viewers (who want to see long drives) to LIV. The only time I can picture it maybe being used is by some of the Open venues who want to protect their courses from being overpowered. I just don't see it as a workable solution on regular tour events though. If LIV didn't exist then the PGA would be free to 'roll back the ball', but they do so there's now a risk involved.

According to Rory, if there is a rolled back ball and it is used in majors (which, at least 2 of them will definitely be), he will just use the rolled back version all the time rather than trying to adjust

McIlroy Supports Governing Bodies' Distance Proposal | No Laying Up

Also worth a read here:
The Loudest Voice in the Conversation | No Laying Up
 

clubchamp98

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sure….but it can take a while to get the rough growing in the first place.

the fact that growing the rough, narrowing fairways etc favours the long hitters even more seems to be being forgotten about. If the fairways are narrower, then more pros are playing from the rough. if more pros are playing from the rough, then those who hit it further will have a huge advantage.

introducing the MLR for the ball, to me, doesn’t go far enough. It should be larger reductions, and pushed out across all formats of the game.
Isn’t it easy to narrow the fairways more the further down the hole you go so at 270 yds no change but after 300yds pinch it in.
so premium for accuracy.
growing the rough is the main problem especially in the USA as some grass lies dormant.
but I am sure the GK could sort that out by overseeing with different grasses.
 

Orikoru

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According to Rory, if there is a rolled back ball and it is used in majors (which, at least 2 of them will definitely be), he will just use the rolled back version all the time rather than trying to adjust

McIlroy Supports Governing Bodies' Distance Proposal | No Laying Up

Also worth a read here:
The Loudest Voice in the Conversation | No Laying Up
Well I suppose he's good enough and long enough to do that. Most won't be quite so happy to give up 10-15-whatever yards every week will they?
 

Wabinez

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Well I suppose he's good enough and long enough to do that. Most won't be quite so happy to give up 10-15-whatever yards every week will they?

Get better then?

Even Billy Horschel on a podcast said he wished there was more reward for hitting the centre of the face and that there are a lot of pros who can hit it anywhere and get away with it. Golf as it stands is too one-dimensional.
 

Wabinez

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Isn’t it easy to narrow the fairways more the further down the hole you go so at 270 yds no change but after 300yds pinch it in.
so premium for accuracy.
growing the rough is the main problem especially in the USA as some grass lies dormant.
but I am sure the GK could sort that out by overseeing with different grasses.


This is the issue...it's got to be the case all over the world...not just the PGA Tour venues. All the Korn Ferry venues, DP World Tour Venues. They go to all corners of the world, and there is never any guarantee that rough can be grown to the extent required; either due to weather factors or just cost implications - it's why it just isn't a feasible solution. I'd be pretty confident that the R&A and USGA looked at this over the past 5 years with their Distance Insights report!
 

clubchamp98

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This is the issue...it's got to be the case all over the world...not just the PGA Tour venues. All the Korn Ferry venues, DP World Tour Venues. They go to all corners of the world, and there is never any guarantee that rough can be grown to the extent required; either due to weather factors or just cost implications - it's why it just isn't a feasible solution. I'd be pretty confident that the R&A and USGA looked at this over the past 5 years with their Distance Insights report!
Yes but it dosnt have to be knee deep to affect the pros.
even the first cut affects the spin on their shots.
It’s a dilemma and no dought whatever they do some won’t like it.
 

Orikoru

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Get better then?

Even Billy Horschel on a podcast said he wished there was more reward for hitting the centre of the face and that there are a lot of pros who can hit it anywhere and get away with it. Golf as it stands is too one-dimensional.
What you're saying doesn't make sense. Why is any of that an incentive for anyone to voluntarily give up distance vs their fellow competitors? It just sounds like you're saying you wish they would.
 

Mel Smooth

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I know this was said a lot of pages back (I've skipped a few now) but I really wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen, or barely features. Given that they've only brought it in as a 'local rule' type thing so it'll be optional? Unless I've understood that wrong. So LIV will obviously pass on it so they can claim that all the big hitters are on their tour. PGA will then be tempted to pass on it so they don't lose more golfers (who want to play the ball of their choosing) and viewers (who want to see long drives) to LIV. The only time I can picture it maybe being used is by some of the Open venues who want to protect their courses from being overpowered. I just don't see it as a workable solution on regular tour events though. If LIV didn't exist then the PGA would be free to 'roll back the ball', but they do so there's now a risk involved.

Saw something from Flushing It on Twitter the other day that suggested that LIV are picking some courses that don't suit the guys that like to bomb and gouge - hence the reason a few of them are struggling to get to the top of the leaderboard where we'd normally expect to see them. I've not got the time to look and see if that's a valid argument or not, but Rahm was pretty damning of the proposed changes yesterday, saying it was a step backwards, and more attention should be given to course design. Fundamentally, courses don't need to be long to be challenging.
 

Wabinez

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What you're saying doesn't make sense. Why is any of that an incentive for anyone to voluntarily give up distance vs their fellow competitors? It just sounds like you're saying you wish they would.

Oh I'm 100% in favour of the rollback. It's the only thing that makes sense to try and keep the game relatively relevant. If things aren't done now, the game at an elite level will very much likely be a complete joke in 10/15 years time. I just wished it would have been full rollback across, without the need for a local rule...but I think after a small period of time, it will just be the norm for recreational golfers too
 
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