Right to adjust handicap or not?

[Old Skier]

But as someone else has put, what if it's more than 2 and it affects the CSS, surely the easiest way is for them to decide whether they intend to use the round as a supplementary or not.
Still play, still enjoy and no impact on Comp what so ever.

Its not something that would occur in great numbers in our club, but whatever is decided, the cards should figure towards handicap whether in the comp or via supplementary.

 

[duncan mackie]

bit confused , as in OP it said they did not qualify for the comp I assume it's on age.
So if their scores affect the css that does not sound right.
Why have a qualifying criteria i.e. Seniors if anyone can play in it , that's just an open age comp?.
In theory you could have say 10 seniors and unlimited non qualifying players but their scores will affect the css for the comp.
This would not happen at my club and does sound a bit bizarre .
why have a qualifying age if anybody can play????

I understand your logic but you are picking a specific example to illustrate it; I am dealing with the principle, and worded my response carefully around that.

Here are some possible examples of situations that can deliberately happen, and some that can easily slip through!

1. Someone slips up on the age eligibility and accidentially enters, plays returns card and it's only at the last minute that it's realised that he didn't qualify for entry. Note that age is not a handicap factor - it shouldn't make any difference whether any given handicap golfer is 8, 28 or 68 in returning a given score.
2. Club requirement that a player has to play in x events over a time period isn't met, player enters etc - many clubs will specify that such players can enter and play but are not eligible for prizes (typical event might be Captains Day). This can be both inadvertent and known - the former leading to inevitable issues when winning scores returned!
3. Some other entry qualification criteria is missed before playing (this can include handicap category - there are many definitions used in practice and it's easy to get confused: handicap on initial entry, on competition day, etc).

Separately, the example ruling given by Paul starts with the assumption that the individual is not a fellow competitor; this seems to confirm that if he is a fellow competitor it counts - all back to whether they were playing in the event or not.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The question for me is - Did they enter the competition without realising they were unable to play ? If so then for me they should be part of the Qualfiying scores but not the prizes.

They entered a card under Qualfying conditions - it should be part of the scores

 

[sawtooth]

The question for me is - Did they enter the competition without realising they were unable to play ? If so then for me they should be part of the Qualfiying scores but not the prizes.

They entered a card under Qualfying conditions - it should be part of the scores

The player knew he wasn't eligible to enter comp before start due to age ( not 55 or over), he was just joining in and marked a card for a senior who was playing in the comp.

In fact it came as quite a shock to get the adjustment as he wasnt expecting one.

I think he has to be excluded from the comp as far as CSS calculation is concerned . And will only include scores like his in future if the ineligible player indicated his intention to use it as a supplementary score which he did not on this occasion.

Based on what people have posted here I am happy with that , the only mistake I made I think was assuming it to be a supplementary score which it wasn't.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The player knew he wasn't eligible to enter comp before start due to age ( not 55 or over), he was just joining in and marked a card for a senior who was playing in the comp.

In fact it came as quite a shock to get the adjustment as he wasnt expecting one.

I think he has to be excluded from the comp as far as CSS calculation is concerned . And will only include scores like his in future if the ineligible player indicated his intention to use it as a supplementary score which he did not on this occasion.

Based on what people have posted here I am happy with that , the only mistake I made I think was assuming it to be a supplementary score which it wasn't.

?! Why did he enter his card then ?

And your initial post didn't say anything about a marker and one player - it was two players who were playing ineligible who entered and played and one or two cards will be minimal if any affect on CSS

 

[rulefan]

The player knew he wasn't eligible to enter comp before start due to age ( not 55 or over), he was just joining in and marked a card for a senior who was playing in the comp.

In fact it came as quite a shock to get the adjustment as he wasnt expecting one.

I think he has to be excluded from the comp as far as CSS calculation is concerned . And will only include scores like his in future if the ineligible player indicated his intention to use it as a supplementary score which he did not on this occasion.

Based on what people have posted here I am happy with that , the only mistake I made I think was assuming it to be a supplementary score which it wasn't.

It certainly isn't straightforward except for the Supplementary Scores not being declared beforehand.
I'll check this with the boss also. But they are on holiday for a week.

 

[bladeplayer]

We had this this weekend m Junior 4-9 & intermediate 9-15 ( i think)scratch cups ,

Our mate off 2 wanted to play a game of golf (sponsors guest) so joined in and used the supplementary card .

as he did not qualify for comp his card should not & did not affect css


He asked for supp but if he hadnt the committee have no right to apply it

if ppl who dont qualify for comps want to play , by all means let them but dont submit their cards at all , unless a supp is requested

 

[sawtooth]

We had this this weekend m Junior 4-9 & intermediate 9-15 ( i think)scratch cups ,

Our mate off 2 wanted to play a game of golf (sponsors guest) so joined in and used the supplementary card .

as he did not qualify for comp his card should not & did not affect css


He asked for supp but if he hadnt the committee have no right to apply it

if ppl who dont qualify for comps want to play , by all means let them but dont submit their cards at all , unless a supp is requested

I think this is the logic that I will apply in future (subject to committee approval) and will put some wording to that affect on our website/noticeboard so everybody knows the score.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Just to confirm that the supplementary must be requested before hand not after the card is completed

I'm just confused how it went from two people playing in the Comp and putting their scores in to 1 person being a markefor someone

- why did they put their score in if they were just a marker

- where did the second Scorecard go ?

 

[clubchamp98]

I understand your logic but you are picking a specific example to illustrate it; I am dealing with the principle, and worded my response carefully around that.

Here are some possible examples of situations that can deliberately happen, and some that can easily slip through!

1. Someone slips up on the age eligibility and accidentially enters, plays returns card and it's only at the last minute that it's realised that he didn't qualify for entry. Note that age is not a handicap factor - it shouldn't make any difference whether any given handicap golfer is 8, 28 or 68 in returning a given score.
2. Club requirement that a player has to play in x events over a time period isn't met, player enters etc - many clubs will specify that such players can enter and play but are not eligible for prizes (typical event might be Captains Day). This can be both inadvertent and known - the former leading to inevitable issues when winning scores returned!
3. Some other entry qualification criteria is missed before playing (this can include handicap category - there are many definitions used in practice and it's easy to get confused: handicap on initial entry, on competition day, etc).

Separately, the example ruling given by Paul starts with the assumption that the individual is not a fellow competitor; this seems to confirm that if he is a fellow competitor it counts - all back to whether they were playing in the event or not.

See your logic but I can't get past if he is not old enough he doesn't "qualify "so has played in a comp he does NOT qualify for.
His score should not impact on css because he does NOT QUALIFY.
Supplementary card yes ,but his score should not affect result and may affect other players h/cap if css is affected by his score.
If I played with the Ladies just to mark a card for a lone golfer would my score be used for the ladies css No.
My main confusion is you must qualify for your score to be included if you don't it should not affect resultant css

 

[Imurg]

Did they play a round under qualifying conditions...?
If so, use the card.
Anything else complicates things beyond what is necessary.
If you don't want to go up - don't play....
To me, this is another example of Golf taking itself far too seriously...It's 0.1 on a handicap for God's sake - play better next week and get cut.

 

[sawtooth]

Just to confirm that the supplementary must be requested before hand not after the card is completed

I'm just confused how it went from two people playing in the Comp and putting their scores in to 1 person being a markefor someone

- why did they put their score in if they were just a marker

- where did the second Scorecard go ?

Yeah I won't treat scores like this as Supplementary in future without due process being followed, ie signing book before going out to play.

There was only 2 players that were too young to be seniors playing. I processed both scores as Supplementary but only 1 player queried his adjustment of .1 increase.

They both marked cards because they were part of the groupings.

Both cards were handed in presumably to help reconcile scores ( marker and player scores recorded on card).

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yeah I won't treat scores like this as Supplementary in future without due process being followed, ie signing book before going out to play.

There was only 2 players that were too young to be seniors playing. I processed both scores as Supplementary but only 1 player queried his adjustment of .1 increase.

They both marked cards because they were part of the groupings.

Both cards were handed in presumably to help reconcile scores ( marker and player scores recorded on card).

Sorry but both scores should be added into the system under the competition- they both entered the comp and played under comp Qualfiying conditions and neither acting just as a marker and both entered their signed scorecards - both should be included in the scores but not the prizes

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Did they play a round under qualifying conditions...?
If so, use the card.
Anything else complicates things beyond what is necessary.
If you don't want to go up - don't play....
To me, this is another example of Golf taking itself far too seriously...It's 0.1 on a handicap for God's sake - play better next week and get cut.

What if the Seniors are off the Yellows and people see it as a way to get a cut, ie playing shorter easier course?
How can somebody who doesn't qualify enter an event then affect the scores, they are not part of the competition.
Totally agree the card shoukd be used against the individual, but not the rest of the field.

 

[Imurg]

What if the Seniors are off the Yellows and people see it as a way to get a cut, ie playing shorter easier course?
How can somebody who doesn't qualify enter an event then affect the scores, they are not part of the competition.
Totally agree the card shoukd be used against the individual, but not the rest of the field.

If it is shorter and easier off the yellows then SSS will be lower to compensate..And you've still got to hit the shots.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

If it is shorter and easier off the yellows then SSS will be lower to compensate..And you've still got to hit the shots.

Just checked a few of our Seniors events from last season, Par is 70, SSS is 67, out of the 4 Comps I checked CSS was 70, 70, 69 and RO, so if someone wanted to try and get a cut they'd have a better chance of "playing" with the Seniors than to do it than playing in a normal Club Comp.

 

[Imurg]

Just checked a few of our Seniors events from last season, Par is 70, SSS is 67, out of the 4 Comps I checked CSS was 70, 70, 69 and RO, so if someone wanted to try and get a cut they'd have a better chance of "playing" with the Seniors than to do it than playing in a normal Club Comp.

I could start up the "scrap CSS" again but that's flogging a dead horse...
If people play well then cut them - what's​ the problem?
As i said, they still have to shoot the score....

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I could start up the "scrap CSS" again but that's flogging a dead horse...
If people play well then cut them - what's​ the problem?
As i said, they still have to shoot the score....

Manipulating handicaps is wrong, whatever the circumstance.

 

[Imurg]

Manipulating handicaps is wrong, whatever the circumstance.

What?
They're playing a round under qualifying conditions on a course with a measured SSS.....What manipulation is going on?
If CSS changes because all the others play crap that's the system at fault...
As i said before - they still have to hit the shots and neither of them did so they went up 0.1

 

[Deleted member 16999]

What?
They're playing a round under qualifying conditions on a course with a measured SSS.....What manipulation is going on?
If CSS changes because all the others play crap that's the system at fault...
As i said before - they still have to hit the shots and neither of them did so they went up 0.1

I was talking in the wider sense, not this particular scenario, this scenario has developed on a bit.