Right to adjust handicap or not?

[sawtooth]

A couple of weeks ago there was a routine seniors midweek qualifying competition at our club. A couple of players joined in this comp but were not old enough to be seniors so not eligible to win. All cards were placed in the box including the 2 players.I processed the competition cards normally (excluding the 2 players from the results) and treated the 2 additional cards as qualifying scores, both went up .1 as a result.One of the players is querying the increase and wants an explanation.Rightly or wrongly I treated this card like any other card from the competition. Was this OK or not?

 

[rosecott]

A couple of weeks ago there was a routine seniors midweek qualifying competition at our club. A couple of players joined in this comp but were not old enough to be seniors so not eligible to win. All cards were placed in the box including the 2 players.I processed the competition cards normally (excluding the 2 players from the results) and treated the 2 additional cards as qualifying scores, both went up .1 as a result.One of the players is querying the increase and wants an explanation.Rightly or wrongly I treated this card like any other card from the competition. Was this OK or not?

Perfectly normal at our place.

In our Seniors QRs, non-Seniors are allowed to play, pay no comp fee - so cannot win prizes - and their scores are included for the CSS calculation and any handicap adjustments.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Surely if they are not playing in the comp and have no standing in said comp they should declare their cards as either supplementary or not hand their cards in?

 

[rulefan]

Unless it was declared beforehand not a qualifier, it was. As they knowingly entered, their handicaps count as qualifying scores.
Prizes are something entirely separate.

 

[sawtooth]

Unless it was declared beforehand not a qualifier, it was. As they knowingly entered, their handicaps count as qualifying scores.
Prizes are something entirely separate.

I should add that I processed the 2 cards as supplementary cards so not part of the competition as I didn't want them to feature on the results (not eligible). As it happened CSS matched SSS on the competition so he would have got the same adjustment regardless if card was processed part of the competition or not.

Thoughts on whether we need to do things differently in future and is this bad practice? I guess its a mis-reporting issue and potentially CSS and SSS may not be equal on other occasions and the players adjustment could be therefore applied incorrectly?

 

[sawtooth]

Perfectly normal at our place.

In our Seniors QRs, non-Seniors are allowed to play, pay no comp fee - so cannot win prizes - and their scores are included for the CSS calculation and any handicap adjustments.

So you process the cards as if they were in the competition and have their names on the results sheets?

Maybe that's what I need to do in future instead of treating them as supplementary scores which strictly speaking they weren't.

Do you then need to manually edit the results sheets? HM software doesn't allow you to do that, I guess I could try exporting it as a word doc instead of a pdf and make manual changes. Would be a pain the backside but possible I guess.

 

[clubchamp98]

So you process the cards as if they were in the competition and have their names on the results sheets?

Maybe that's what I need to do in future instead of treating them as supplementary scores which strictly speaking they weren't.

Do you then need to manually edit the results sheets? HM software doesn't allow you to do that, I guess I could try exporting it as a word doc instead of a pdf and make manual changes. Would be a pain the backside but possible I guess.

Can't see why they are playing in the comp if they don't qualify.
If their scores actually changed the css I am sure the seniors would want to know why.

 

[rulefan]

A couple of weeks ago there was a routine seniors midweek qualifying competition at our club. A couple of players joined in this comp but were not old enough to be seniors so not eligible to win. All cards were placed in the box including the 2 players.I processed the competition cards normally (excluding the 2 players from the results) and treated the 2 additional cards as qualifying scores, both went up .1 as a result.One of the players is querying the increase and wants an explanation.Rightly or wrongly I treated this card like any other card from the competition. Was this OK or not?

It would be contrary to the spirit and intent of the system for players to play in a competition under qualifying conditions and for their scores not to be included for handicap purposes (including the CSS calculation).

 

[Deleted member 16999]

It would be contrary to the spirit and intent of the system for players to play in a competition under qualifying conditions and for their scores not to be included for handicap purposes (including the CSS calculation).

I'm confused with this, our Seniors play every Tue/Thurs throughout the summer and just about every game is played under qualifying conditions, they are more than happy for other members to join them so long as they play the same format.

The guys joining them are doing it simply to enjoy a game of golf with decent company, they would not be playing with the intention of possible affecting the competition or with the prospect of the round affecting their own handicap.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but it almost comes across as anyone joining in with the Seniors should be told that they are part of the competition and their score matters.

 

[sawtooth]

To help clarify,

Should the 2 cards from the players not eligible to win the comp be processed for handicap purposes?

And if so does this need to be as part of the competition or can i treat them as supplementary cards and separate the two things?

I realise doing the latter may be an administrative error because strictly speaking they were not supplementary scores but i didn't want their names on the results sheet .Also their scores may impact CSS of the competition (if i included them) and I can't see that being right if they aren't part of the comp.

 

[duncan mackie]

To help clarify,

Should the 2 cards from the players not eligible to win the comp be processed for handicap purposes?

And if so does this need to be as part of the competition or can i treat them as supplementary cards and separate the two things?

I realise doing the latter may be an administrative error because strictly speaking they were not supplementary scores but i didn't want their names on the results sheet .Also their scores may impact CSS of the competition (if i included them) and I can't see that being right if they aren't part of the comp.

I completely agree with what rulefan has posted above.

If they have complied with your procedures for taking part in the competition then they form part of the field for handicap; their scores are processed in the normal way and definitely form part of the CSS calculation.
Prize eligibility is seperate.

 

[sawtooth]

I completely agree with what rulefan has posted above.

If they have complied with your procedures for taking part in the competition then they form part of the field for handicap; their scores are processed in the normal way and definitely form part of the CSS calculation.
Prize eligibility is seperate.

OK thanks both for that I will bear that in mind for the future comps.

 

[clubchamp98]

I completely agree with what rulefan has posted above.

If they have complied with your procedures for taking part in the competition then they form part of the field for handicap; their scores are processed in the normal way and definitely form part of the CSS calculation.
Prize eligibility is seperate.

bit confused , as in OP it said they did not qualify for the comp I assume it's on age.
So if their scores affect the css that does not sound right.
Why have a qualifying criteria i.e. Seniors if anyone can play in it , that's just an open age comp?.
In theory you could have say 10 seniors and unlimited non qualifying players but their scores will affect the css for the comp.
This would not happen at my club and does sound a bit bizarre .
why have a qualifying age if anybody can play????

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Found this in the decisions in the CONGU Manual:

Decision. 2.d

"Q. Can a person, other than a fellow competitor, appointed to act as a marker return a Qualifying Score for handicap purposes?

A. A person appointed by an organising Committee to act as a marker cannot return a Qualifying Score for handicap purposes and his score must not be included in the Competition Scratch Score calculation.
Subject to the provisions of Clause 21 and with permission from the Committee in charge of the competition the marker may return a Supplementary Score."

Accepting that the 2 people in the OP were not appointed to act as markers, the answer given that their score should not be used CSS, is there any difference to the op's scenario?

 

[rulefan]

I considered this decision but ignored it as the OP said the players had 'joined the competition'. I took that to mean they were Fellow Competitors.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I considered this decision but ignored it as the OP said the players had 'joined the competition'. I took that to mean they were Fellow Competitors.

I think you're spot on, it's the terminology of what status you give to those "joining in" with the Seniors Comp, at our place we class anyone joining the seniors as purely playing a bounce game that has no impact apart from enjoying the company.

 

[sawtooth]

Ok this is what I have decided to do.

Offer to undo the adjustment on the basis that he was acting marker and not participating in the competition.

I treated his card as a supplementary score and shouldn't have based on a) absence of the players intention to play a supplementary score prior to starting the round b) we don't yet have a process for handling supplementary scores at the club. This work in progress.

Is this OK?

 

[sawtooth]

Found this in the decisions in the CONGU Manual:

Decision. 2.d

"Q. Can a person, other than a fellow competitor, appointed to act as a marker return a Qualifying Score for handicap purposes?

A. A person appointed by an organising Committee to act as a marker cannot return a Qualifying Score for handicap purposes and his score must not be included in the Competition Scratch Score calculation.
Subject to the provisions of Clause 21 and with permission from the Committee in charge of the competition the marker may return a Supplementary Score."

Accepting that the 2 people in the OP were not appointed to act as markers, the answer given that their score should not be used CSS, is there any difference to the op's scenario?

Thanks Paul I think that covers it. Fingers crossed.

 

[Old Skier]

Personally I would inform them that by playing in the comp although not eligible for prizes they are playing in a qualifier and any adjustments will apply.

The fact that they appear in the results sheet is irrelevant as long as everyone knows that the position of the two players is irrelevant.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Personally I would inform them that by playing in the comp although not eligible for prizes they are playing in a qualifier and any adjustments will apply.

The fact that they appear in the results sheet is irrelevant as long as everyone knows that the position of the two players is irrelevant.

But as someone else has put, what if it's more than 2 and it affects the CSS, surely the easiest way is for them to decide whether they intend to use the round as a supplementary or not.
Still play, still enjoy and no impact on Comp what so ever.