Relief or not?

[backwoodsman]

The scene...

The green at our 3rd hole has a pond immediately adjacent to it. There is the green itself, then about a yard and a half of fringe, then the pond edge. The edge is a vertical drop down to the water made of railway sleepers. The top edge of the sleepers is about 4 inches higher than the grass surface. The pond is marked as a lateral water hazard with the red stakes being in the grass immediately in front of the sleeper wall (back edge of the stake touches front edge of sleepers) so the sleepers themselves are in the hazard.

A players ball lies on the fringe - not in the hazard, but close enough so that the raised edge of the sleepers interferes with the players stance - or even his backswing. Other than the sleepers, there is nothing else that impedes the stroke. Is player entitled to free relief?

 

[rulefan]

The scene...

The green at our 3rd hole has a pond immediately adjacent to it. There is the green itself, then about a yard and a half of fringe, then the pond edge. The edge is a vertical drop down to the water made of railway sleepers. The top edge of the sleepers is about 4 inches higher than the grass surface. The pond is marked as a lateral water hazard with the red stakes being in the grass immediately in front of the sleeper wall (back edge of the stake touches front edge of sleepers) so the sleepers themselves are in the hazard.

A players ball lies on the fringe - not in the hazard, but close enough so that the raised edge of the sleepers interferes with the players stance - or even his backswing. Other than the sleepers, there is nothing else that impedes the stroke. Is player entitled to free relief?

Yes. As the ball is not in the WH he is entitled to relief from the immovable obstruction, unless a local rule deems the sleeper to be an integral part of the course.

It is only if the ball lies in the WH that there is no relief from an IO.

See Rule 24-2b

 

[backwoodsman]

Yes. As the ball is not in the WH he is entitled to relief from the immovable obstruction, unless a local rule deems the sleeper to be an integral part of the course.

It is only if the ball lies in the WH that there is no relief from an IO.

See Rule 24-2b

Ta. And thank you for restoring my sanity.

We had the situation yesterday when one of my three ball asked if he could have a free drop. I said yes, other person said no. In the end player decided to play as it lay. But we agreed to check in the clubhouse (l had my rulebook in my bag but no reading glasses...) ln the bar afterwards, we went through the rule book and he still didn't agree there was free relief. We asked around the bar and not one person agreed with me. Everyone said "no relief". The justification on everyone's part seemed to be "because it's part of the hazard". My explanation of "but that doesn't matter if the ball is not in the hazard" just fell on deaf ears. And they even accepted that they'd get relief for all other sleeper constructions elsewhere on the course. Frustrating.

And no, they are not declared an integral part of the course. (To the extent that new scorecards are coming out (tomorrow I think) which will say as much on the back with the local rules)

 

[williamalex1]

Ta. And thank you for restoring my sanity.

We had the situation yesterday when one of my three ball asked if he could have a free drop. I said yes, other person said no. In the end player decided to play as it lay. But we agreed to check in the clubhouse (l had my rulebook in my bag but no reading glasses...) ln the bar afterwards, we went through the rule book and he still didn't agree there was free relief. We asked around the bar and not one person agreed with me. Everyone said "no relief". The justification on everyone's part seemed to be "because it's part of the hazard". My explanation of "but that doesn't matter if the ball is not in the hazard" just fell on deaf ears. And they even accepted that they'd get relief for all other sleeper constructions elsewhere on the course. Frustrating.

And no, they are not declared an integral part of the course. (To the extent that new scorecards are coming out (tomorrow I think) which will say as much on the back with the local rules)

He should have invoked rule 3-3 :thup:

 

[backwoodsman]

He should have invoked rule 3-3 :thup:

It was only a casual game - if it had been a competition, I'd have told him to do so.

 

[McFade]

May I add one thought?
The OP tells us, that the red stakes are immediately in front of the sleepers.
So, if the ball touches the sleepers (or the stakes), it would be in the hazard, because stakes, defining the margins of a WH, are part of the hazard.
In this case, there would be no free relief.

 

[Tarkus1212]

deleted

 

[duncan mackie]

May I add one thought?
The OP tells us, that the red stakes are immediately in front of the sleepers.
So, if the ball touches the sleepers (or the stakes), it would be in the hazard, because stakes, defining the margins of a WH, are part of the hazard.
In this case, there would be no free relief.

Correct

But if the ball isn't touching the sleepers as outlined in this situation it isn't in the hazard.

 

[williamalex1]

Correct

But if the ball isn't touching the sleepers as outlined in this situation it isn't in the hazard.

So if the ball was only touching the sleepers then its deemed to be in the hazard

 

[Colin L]

So if the ball was only touching the sleepers then its deemed to be in the hazard

The pond is marked as a lateral water hazard with the red stakes being in the grass immediately in front of the sleeper wall (back edge of the stake touches front edge of sleepers) so the sleepers themselves are in the hazard.


From the OP's description, a ball touching the sleepers would certainly be in the hazard. But as the stakes are in front of the sleepers, however, I would see it that you could have a ball in the hazard that is not touching the sleepers as in the diagram:

View attachment 20643

 

[McFade]

From the OP's description, a ball touching the sleepers would certainly be in the hazard. But as the stakes are in front of the sleepers, however, I would see it that you could have a ball in the hazard that is not touching the sleepers as in the diagram:
View attachment 20643

Colin I cannot open your attachment.
But I can imagine different ball positions, where the ball is inside the hazard without touching the sleepers or the stakes.
According to the definition of water hazard, the stakes defining the margin are inside the WH. And the margin of the WH is defined by the nearest outside points of the stakes.
So any ball, touching this imaginary line is in the hazard, even if it doesn't touch the stakes or the sleeves.

 

[Colin L]

Here's the diagram again - I hope.

 

[duncan mackie]

So if the ball was only touching the sleepers then its deemed to be in the hazard

A ball is deemed to be in a water hazard if it's in, or touching the margin of the hazard.

As Colin's stated, in the description we have been given here any ball touching the sleepers will be in the hazard and any balls within a stakes width of the sleepers will also be in the hazard (assuming consistent parallel marking).

 

[backwoodsman]

Here's the diagram again - I hope.


View attachment 20658

Colin's diagram has it exactly. (Was going to do one myself but I don't know how to "draw" using my tablet...)

And just to check on Duncan's point, if the ball was nudged up against - and touching - the outside face of a red stake, then the ball is deemed to be in the hazard. Correct ?? (Even though no part of it actually crosses the infinitely thin line than is the boundary?)

 

[McFade]

And just to check on Duncan's point, if the ball was nudged up against - and touching - the outside face of a red stake, then the ball is deemed to be in the hazard. Correct ?? (Even though no part of it actually crosses the infinitely thin line than is the boundary?)

From the definition Water Hazard:

A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.