Region3 - Draw with the driver

[JustOne]

So, would you use the same method (ball back in the stance and slightly open face) to hit a draw with a driver?

Just a 5-10yd one, not hooking around a tree!

I really like answering your questions Gary because I love the way your brain works, analysing the information at hand, in this case the ballflight laws. It's a very good question and raises some interesting 'anomalies' which I'll explain later which hopefully will have you saying "oh yeh!" to yourself.

The ballflight laws don't ever change so Monty_Browns reply applies 100%, however it's to do with impact position so Bobmac's reply also applies.

Certainly to hit a controlled draw that does not end up left of the desired target, the idea is to have the face open to the target, but the swingpath going in to outside RELATIVE TO THE CLUBFACE.

So for example, if the club face is 5* open to the target line, the swing must be in excess of 5* outside target line (in to out) to produce draw spin.

Consider this.................

The swing has a low point at the bottom of the arc, if we have the ball forwards and hit it on the rise IN FRONT OF THE LOW POINT then by the time the clubhead gets to the ball the swingpath will be slightly returning to the inside (OUT-TO-IN) and the clubface will be pointing ever so slightly to the left. Done correctly this will produce a slight PULL-FADE and is the stock shot for most amateurs (often leading to slices but let's not get into that). Not many professionals use this swing (in fact I'm struggling to find any at all)as there's a better way to fade the ball left to right)


So let's take a look at that impact position....




As you can see the ball is inside the left heel and is hit in front of the low point (red dot) on the way up. The clubhead is rising (+4°) and AHEAD OF THE HANDS, this position is achieved by the majority of amateurs, especially those who load up the right side, if the face is a fraction open it's a SLICE!.




So, how to make the ball draw? We know from the ballflight laws that the clubface points where we start the ball (so it needs to point a little right) and we can't be swinging out-to-in at impact or else that will inmpart fade spin. Also we can't move the ball back further in our stance as you suggested because the clubshaft is too long and will hit the ground behind the ball.... so what we have to do is adjust our IMPACT POSITION so that the LOW POINT moves further forward, we can use our long club and still make impact before the swingpath returns to the inside.

So let's have a look at that impact position.....





As you can see the ball is in the same position as the first picture (inside left heel) however by moving our lower body more forwards through impact and having the hands more forward we can move the low point ahead of the ball and therefore stike it FROM THE INSIDE PATH. If we ARE striking it from the inside path (in-to-out) at impact then we KNOW that we will impart draw spin.... if we know we can impart draw spin then we KNOW we can have the clubface open slightly (increasing dynamic loft) and the ball will still draw back to the target line.

Here's a picture of Dustin Johnson who bombs it with a natural push-draw!....




As you can see he has driven his lower body forward enough that his hands are ahead, the club hasn't reached it's lowpoint yet so it will be travelling from the inside. His impact descent angle will be close to 0° (50% of tour players hit at -1° with driver) and the face will be open to the target.

Here's Sean O'Hair close to impact, notice again how the body has driven forward and hands are ahead of the clubface (both move the lowpoint forwards) and also just how open the clubface is.....



I guess it's important to make people understand that if you hang back and let that clubface overtake the hands you're going to slice it, pull it, and fade it with an out-to-in impact path, and to hit a draw you need to be favour being ahead of the ball a lot more, which ties in nicely with how Bobmac described your swing in particular....

You tend to get a little in front of the ball at impact which is why you dont hit it very high

An anomaly is that to draw the driver we have to move the impact point more forward... another way to do this (as I alluded to earlier) is to CUT DOWN THE SHAFT LENGTH!.... have you ever seen people talking about having a shorter driver shaft and hitting it better? Well that's because they can strike it more from the inside (less on the up so the face won't point left)... but without knowing why

Hope that helps, took me ages to write!

 

[StrangelyBrown]

I don't fully understand, but great post none-the-less

 

[JustOne]

Ha! Thanks... which part is confusing SB?

 

[fundy]

James

regarding the AofA with the driver, you say most tour pros have a 1 degree downwards attack. I thought one of the outcomes from the new ball flight laws was that there was a shift to trying to hit the driver with an upward AofA (ultimately improving launch angle and increasing carry), am I wrong?

reason for asking is the real bad spell I had with the driver earlier in the year was when I was trying to hit up on it more

 

[bobmac]

Ha! Thanks... which part is confusing SB?

The words :rofl:

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I'm gonna have to read that again to get it properly but it's fascinating none the less. Great post

 

[JustOne]

James

regarding the AofA with the driver, you say most tour pros have a 1 degree downwards attack. I thought one of the outcomes from the new ball flight laws was that there was a shift to trying to hit the driver with an upward AofA (ultimately improving launch angle and increasing carry), am I wrong?

reason for asking is the real bad spell I had with the driver earlier in the year was when I was trying to hit up on it more

Yeh thanks for that Fundy... don't you think I get criticised enough already for complicating things!!!!!!!






I've read quite extensively and there's no stats to back that up. IIRC it has been shown that you can hit up on a driver in 2 ways... (1) close your stance slightly to cancel out the closing clubface and hit a 'straight-pull' (ball goes left of stance line rather like Mo Norman's used to) as seen on the D-plane video at 7min56sec http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sIQ-7DJJbU (notice the toe line) or (2) open the clubface sufficiently and hit up with the hands well ahead to cancel out the out-to-in swingpath, almost like a cricket shot (still gives you a slight draw and is practically the stack and tilt model ).

Oh, yeh... you can play a pull-fade so that makes 3 ways.

In my opinion I think there's more work from the manufacturers changing the dynamics of the clubs than there is from the Tour pros changing the way they hit the big dog. There has been a noticable movement away from drivers that only have 8° of loft though, especially since people realised they were hitting down on it and THAT'S the reason the ball went so low.... ball development (high launch low spin) also plays it's part.

To be honest I think it's about learning the correct swing dynamics and then learning how to put them to proper use. If you're hitting a bad shot you need to be able to know what's going on and how you can correct it quickly without having to change your entire swing.

 

[fundy]

theres certainly lots of bits of anecdotal evidence of the advantages of a positive angle of attack in regards to distance (talk of Bubba hitting 9 degrees up!), pretty sure Manzella did a video comparing different angle of attacks too but cant find it currentlly, its definitely something Id like to look into whilst hitting balls on trackman to gain a better understanding of it first hand, that said it lead to me having a different shoulder angle for driver than other clubs and this caused me all sorts of other problems last time I messed about with it

 

[JustOne]

theres certainly lots of bits of anecdotal evidence of the advantages of a positive angle of attack in regards to distance (talk of Bubba hitting 9 degrees up!), pretty sure Manzella did a video comparing different angle of attacks too but cant find it currentlly, its definitely something Id like to look into whilst hitting balls on trackman to gain a better understanding of it first hand, that said it lead to me having a different shoulder angle for driver than other clubs and this caused me all sorts of other problems last time I messed about with it

Bubba uses the cricket stroke method (stack and tilt model), he hits up by extension and almost jumps out of his shoes. He also doesn't hit a straight ball (in case you didn't notice! LOL) and plays either a hook or a push-fade. You may have noticed at Bushey I'm currently trying to perfect that method


IN MY OPINION Manzella is a knob and you can tell him that from me. He advocates loading up the right side and a flat shoulder turn. His work on the D-plane is very good though.

 

[fundy]

Ah it was a reverse Bubba - I knew Id seen that swing somewhere before !!!!!!

first negatives Ive heard about Manzella, was put onto him when I first learnt about D-plane. my impression was that he didnt prefer too many rigid rules and that each golfer should be taught individually

when you say flat shoulder turn, I assume you mean the shoulders stay parallel to the floor rather than there being any tilt in them?

 

[JustOne]

I assume you mean the shoulders stay parallel to the floor rather than there being any tilt in them?

Correct. It's not good.

Whilst a few people are talented enough to hit the ball standing on one leg with one hand behind their back it's better to teach the majority a method that makes the game easier. There should be a tilt on the shoulders towards the ball at the top of the backswing.

 

[JustOne]

In my opinion this is how NOT to swing a club.



Manzella advocates loading up the right side and it can lead to all sorts of problems (flat shoulders/stuck on the right side/fats/thins etc) that just get worse as the club gets longer.

 

[fundy]

Personally dont think I could hit it if there was no tilt in my shoulders.

When I was changing things with the driver I was trying to have an upward angle of shoulders at impact (ie left higher than right) to change the angle of attack and hit the ball more on the up as such. Was fine on the good ones but brought the horror duck hook back into play too often as it made me far too likely to collapse my left side. Am now working on hip rotation rather than slide to improve the consistency and expect my angle of attack has regressed back to being slightly downwards, maybe not optimal but I feel in better control that way round, at least until I manage to reduce how active my hands are through impact at which stage Id be happy tring to change it again

 

[fundy]

Surely overly loading the right side leads to almost a sway on the way back and requires a counter sway on the way through to enable the weight to transfer properly?

 

[Captainron]

Tee it up. Smash it. Find it. Repeat....

 

[Naybrains]

To many words for my naybrain.
What's it about?

 

[JustOne]

Surely overly loading the right side leads to almost a sway on the way back and requires a counter sway on the way through to enable the weight to transfer properly?

Exactly. I took Manzella to task over it and he whinged like a baby. He's got a living to defend I guess.

First lesson of a golf pro: Get the customer back for another lesson

 

[DaveM]

My normal shot with the driver. Is a slight draw. Dont ask how I do it, I dont know. It just happens.

 

[Region3]

Thanks for the detailed explanation James. You're right, I do like to analyse things and understand the reasons why. It's more of an affliction than an asset, but I'm stuck with it.

I understand everything you've said, but I have a couple of questions if I may...

Since Bob's already alluded to the fact that I get ahead of the ball, does that mean I'm swinging out-to-in when I don't get a draw?

If having a shorter shaft would help, why doesn't standing an inch further away achieve the same thing?

 

[JustOne]

Since Bob's already alluded to the fact that I get ahead of the ball, does that mean I'm swinging out-to-in when I don't get a draw?

What shape do you get?

If having a shorter shaft would help, why doesn't standing an inch further away achieve the same thing?

Standing further away would cause the toe to come up and subsequently the clubface would be pointing more left. Cutting a club down basically has the opposite effect (toe down, club points more right).

Put a short enough shaft in a driver and you can practically hit it like a 7 iron from the middle of your stance