Reece Dempster, murderer and rapist.

[Deleted member 16999]

In answer to your question. A guy walks into a house murders and rapes a pensioner and admits his guilt.

Now you ask me a complex question about a soldier ( F ) who denies murder whilst “defending“ himself and this country against terrorists, who we serve out the death penalty when said terrorists are on our streets. Be it ISA or the IRA.

What I cannot understand is the comments about me or others trying to ” Emotionally blackmail” fellow posters on here. I can only speak for myself that what I am trying to point out is that it could be any one of us on here that is affected by murder, including me. Furthermore there is no acceptance of emotional attachment from the non death penalty side of the discussion.Yet on the Very day this is mentioned, Helen McCourt who is still emotionally devastated that the scum that murdered her daughter is re
eased from jail. My grief with the none death penalty brigade is more thought is given to murderers than victims families.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-51396966

Again Tash you post full on broad brush, big hand statements ie “none death penalty brigade” “no acceptance of emotional attachment” yet when a question is thrown back at you, you come out with excuses of complex issues and the like.

Put yourself in the shoes of the families of the alleged victims of Soldier F, think about their emotions and their feelings, not easy is it.

In the eyes of the law both this scum bag and Soldier F maybe equally as guilty of murder, but 100% you don’t feel the same way about the punishment they should/could receive.

 

[Hobbit]

In answer to your question. A guy walks into a house murders and rapes a pensioner and admits his guilt.

Now you ask me a complex question about a soldier ( F ) who denies murder whilst “defending“ himself and this country against terrorists, who we serve out the death penalty when said terrorists are on our streets. Be it ISA or the IRA.

What I cannot understand is the comments about me or others trying to ” Emotionally blackmail” fellow posters on here. I can only speak for myself that what I am trying to point out is that it could be any one of us on here that is affected by murder, including me. Furthermore there is no acceptance of emotional attachment from the non death penalty side of the discussion.Yet on the Very day this is mentioned, Helen McCourt who is still emotionally devastated that the scum that murdered her daughter is re
eased from jail. My grief with the none death penalty brigade is more thought is given to murderers than victims families.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-51396966

Your last sentence is poor in the extreme. The only thing the none death penalty brigade have said is no to the death penalty. None of them have said there should be better treatment for the criminal than the victim's families, and for you to suggest otherwise is...... there's lots of things I could say in that respect but won't. A good number of the none death penalty brigade have clearly indicated they would welcome tougher, very much harsher sentences but hey, you obviously missed that.

I've worked as part of a team in supporting a victim's family. The support is well structured, comprehensive and ongoing for as long as a family needs it. What it doesn't do is support any arguments on sentencing nor does it argue against those arguments. It has to be separate from that or there would be a danger of its function being clouded by emotion - work with passion, not emotion.

And for you Tashy, learn to listen not just hear. If you'd "listened" you would know that the vast majority of the none death penalty brigade had advocated far stronger, harsger sentencing.

 

[Hacker Khan]

In answer to your question. A guy walks into a house murders and rapes a pensioner and admits his guilt.

Now you ask me a complex question about a soldier ( F ) who denies murder whilst “defending“ himself and this country against terrorists, who we serve out the death penalty when said terrorists are on our streets. Be it ISA or the IRA.

What I cannot understand is the comments about me or others trying to ” Emotionally blackmail” fellow posters on here. I can only speak for myself that what I am trying to point out is that it could be any one of us on here that is affected by murder, including me. Furthermore there is no acceptance of emotional attachment from the non death penalty side of the discussion.Yet on the Very day this is mentioned, Helen McCourt who is still emotionally devastated that the scum that murdered her daughter is re
eased from jail. My grief with the none death penalty brigade is more thought is given to murderers than victims families.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-51396966

On your first post in this thread you were going on about the 'politically correct coming along soon to defend the murderer'. Now you are saying some on here give more thought to murderers than victims families. As others have said just have a think about what you are accusing people of. This is a very complex issue and life is not black or white where you are totally either for executing people who have committed horrible crimes or you want to give them a slap on the wrist and put your arms around their shoulders, no in between. There may well be one or two people who are like the latter, but they are the extremely rare exceptions, it is just unfortunate that nowadays any debate in the media involves people with such extreme and opposite views thus perpetrating the fact that you are either one or the other.

 

[woody69]

Not really going to change too many people's way of thinking when the bottom of the article tells you that Norway has given Brevik a 21 year sentence for killing 77 people.

Brevik won't be released. After his 21 year sentence is up he will most likely be sentenced to "preventative detention" in an extra-high-security prison. This means he will be kept beyond the longest sentence permitted by law - 21 years - as he will still most likely be considered a risk to society.

But that isn't really the point. You can't take an extreme example and use it as a reason to ignore all the evidence that suggests the approach taken by Norway is working considerably better than the UK or UK model.

 

[Tashyboy]

Another absolute terribly not well thought through post there Tashy..

You can't understand the comments because you clearly didn't think before you posted by naming fellow forumers and using their family as hypothetical scenarios rather than sticking to facts. Likewise nobody is paying more thought to the murderer than they are the victims or families involved, that's just yet another of your bias spins to hammer home your point and is quite frankly a disgraceful thing to say.

Please next time engage your brain before you reply.

But this is the differance between you and me Wolf. I respect your view and the view of everyone that says they don’t agree with the death penalty. I don’t agree with it. But I respect it.
Now lets look at your opinion. I quoted the very people that agreed/ liked a comment against what I said. You were on that list. You then go on about not commenting on said posts. ? You start saying engage your brain. If you had Maybe done that before your liked something on this thread you would of not been mentioned. Now there’s a thought.
My bias spin. Really. It don’t matter what I say, or even what you say. Peoples views are entrenched on this subject. It does not matter one bit what I say or you say. We will not change people’s opinions. The differance between me and you is that I understand that.

 

[woody69]

I dont think comparing crime and prison in Norway with the UK or USA is like comparing apples with apples. Norway has a small population that is fairly mono cultured. As population increases and becomes more multi cultural violent crime increases exponentially, its a bit like comparing crime rates in the Scilly Isles to the rest of England.

violent crime increases exponentially in a multi-cultural population? Interesting assertion. Do you have any sources to back that claim up?

Still, I am not sure what that has to do with the prison system within Norway that focuses more on rehabilitation and restorative justice and its impact on recidivism rates between the 2 countries

 

[woody69]

Can I split hairs on this one? In terms of rehabilitation of SOME criminals this really does work. However evidence suggests that for criminals convicted of the more extreme crimes it makes no difference in the vast majority of cases.

The Norwegian guy convicted of the mass killings of students on whatever island has an apartment that also includes a personal gym area. He’s never coming out... what’s the point in attempting rehabilitation? Without a doubt a very humane way to live but shouldn’t the punishment go some way to reflect the crime?

I’d argue that the UK’s version is poor but also the Norway’s version goes too far the other way.

I would suggest it is more than "some" considering Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, currently 20%, with approximately 3,933 offenders in prison, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

I don't doubt that there will be a number of criminals convicted that it doesn't help, e.g. Brevik, but he's never getting out. His punishment is his loss of freedom and liberty and he has often argues his conditions are violating his human rights, which has been rejected, so I suspect he would be quite happy with a lethal injection

But looking at the bigger picture, moving away from a system of punishment towards rehabilitation and restorative justice is a far more sensible approach to take and Norway is proving it works.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But this is the differance between you and me Wolf. I respect your view and the view of everyone that says they don’t agree with the death penalty. I don’t agree with it. But I respect it.
Now lets look at your opinion. I quoted the very people that agreed/ liked a comment against what I said. You were on that list. You then go on about not commenting on said posts. ? You start saying engage your brain. If you had Maybe done that before your liked something on this thread you would of not been mentioned. Now there’s a thought.
My bias spin. Really. It don’t matter what I say, or even what you say. Peoples views are entrenched on this subject. It does not matter one bit what I say or you say. We will not change people’s opinions. The differance between me and you is that I understand that.

Nobody is expecting you to change your opinion(although this forum can be a force for good, and educational when people take the emotion out of it) but it would be good if sometimes people gave a slight pause before posting from the hip.

I firmly believe you and me are of the same opinion when it comes to Soldier F and I purposely brought him in to the discussion to try and make you think.

I’m not expecting you to change your opinion on the death penalty, just as I’m conflicted about my own, all I was looking to do was to maybe get you to stop and think about the position you were supporting and taking such an extreme position may cause you to doubt yourself in the future.

It would be impossible to cover every murder conviction with a simple guilty means the death penalty.

 

[Wolf]

But this is the differance between you and me Wolf. I respect your view and the view of everyone that says they don’t agree with the death penalty. I don’t agree with it. But I respect it.
Now lets look at your opinion. I quoted the very people that agreed/ liked a comment against what I said. You were on that list. You then go on about not commenting on said posts. ? You start saying engage your brain. If you had Maybe done that before your liked something on this thread you would of not been mentioned. Now there’s a thought.
My bias spin. Really. It don’t matter what I say, or even what you say. Peoples views are entrenched on this subject. It does not matter one bit what I say or you say. We will not change people’s opinions. The differance between me and you is that I understand that.

Do you want me to get you a shovel to go with that hole your digging yourself.

This post is another load of assumptions your making based on what exactly?

I have not said i don't respect your view in any of my posts. My first reply on this thread was to ask you why you named me in a comment when I had not at any point posted on the thread, it was you in naming me that brought me into it not the other way around, you chose to do so because i "liked" a comment. That is a leap to assume you can bring me into it or my feelings towards it had it been my family.. Fact Tashy you brought me into it not the other way round! I only began replying to you when you brought me into a debate i wasnt partaking in...

I did engage my brain before i liked the comment but again, fact I hadn't commented because this is the exact turn these threads always take. So again its on you actually naming me to suit your agenda that i got involved.

Yes your bias spin, because its you who has said none death sentence people are giving more thought to the murderer, therefore has made it sound like those of us against the death penalty have little or no feeling towards the victim. That is the only post I mentioned you should think before you post and I'm not the only that said that, but fact again you only quote me at this stage in response.

As for your last sentence you say the difference between you and me is that you understand you won't change people's opinions! Here's another fact I've not said anyone should change their opinion, I've not argued against anyone's opinion on this thread, all i have done is reply to you when you named me without prior comment, I've not enforced any opinion of my own, all I've done is said im against it for many reasons and i didn't elaborate on that as I didn't even want to discuss on this thread. So to say you understand opinions won't change and I don't understand that is another spin from you assuming I've tried to change people's opinions by enforcement of my own which I haven't done. Here's that fact again you brought me into the debate, you said people that are none death penalty have more feeling toward the murderer, yet your trying to put it on me.

I'd suggest stop digging a hole Tashy, any respect as poster i had for you is quickly diminishing the more you try to shift this onto me when I had no intent on being involved in the comments of this thread in the first place.

You could have simply acknowledged my first reply to you, apologised for dragging me into it and that would have been the end of it. Sadly you decided to continue with the tact of its Wolf's fault because he clicked the like button... In your own words Tashy absolutely rammel in your thoughts towards me in this.

Sorry to others for the long post..

 

[Hacker Khan]

violent crime increases exponentially in a multi-cultural population? Interesting assertion. Do you have any sources to back that claim up?

Still, I am not sure what that has to do with the prison system within Norway that focuses more on rehabilitation and restorative justice and its impact on recidivism rates between the 2 countries

Well there's http://theconversation.com/immigration-and-crime-is-there-a-link-93521 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1477370818775294

 

[woody69]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1477370818775294

The abstract of the 2nd piece states: It seems that the heavy emphasis placed on ethnic diversity for explaining social dislocation and violence, in so far as it relates to a country’s homicide rate, seems to be misplaced.

The 1st article is interesting, but he doesn't provide any information about his data other than saying violent crime is 70% higher than the national average. I would be interested in learning more, but I'd still say the statement "violent crime increases exponentially in a multi-cultural population" to be a little OTT

 

[SocketRocket]

The abstract of the 2nd piece states: It seems that the heavy emphasis placed on ethnic diversity for explaining social dislocation and violence, in so far as it relates to a country’s homicide rate, seems to be misplaced.

The 1st article is interesting, but he doesn't provide any information about his data other than saying violent crime is 70% higher than the national average. I would be interested in learning more, but I'd still say the statement "violent crime increases exponentially in a multi-cultural population" to be a little OTT

Take a look at London for instance, there is no doubt in my mind that most knife crime is carried out by Black people, most of the victims also seem to be black. Im not offering reasons why as thats another issue, I made the point due to someone suggesting Norway has a lower crime rate than the UK, if you read my post I suggested its wrong to compare Norway to England and suggested why I think thats the case.

 

[Hacker Khan]

The abstract of the 2nd piece states: It seems that the heavy emphasis placed on ethnic diversity for explaining social dislocation and violence, in so far as it relates to a country’s homicide rate, seems to be misplaced.

The 1st article is interesting, but he doesn't provide any information about his data other than saying violent crime is 70% higher than the national average. I would be interested in learning more, but I'd still say the statement "violent crime increases exponentially in a multi-cultural population" to be a little OTT

I know, I was trying to prove your point

 

[woody69]

Take a look at London for instance, there is no doubt in my mind that most knife crime is carried out by Black people, most of the victims also seem to be black. Im not offering reasons why as thats another issue, I made the point due to someone suggesting Norway has a lower crime rate than the UK, if you read my post I suggested its wrong to compare Norway to England and suggested why I think thats the case.

Your suggestions are misplaced. Some of the worst knife attacks have taken place outside of London over the past few years, where both the victim and the perpetrators were white. Do you think there is a racial element to that in terms of cultural issues, racial issues, or is it the same problem they had in Glasgow where they were white, and actually the race part of this is something where people look at the statistics in London, think it’s a black problem and actually it’s not?

And perhaps Norway has a lower crime rate because they are doing things right in terms of prison and punishment vs. rehabilitation, creating lower recidivism rates. Yes. I am sure there are many more variables that have to be considered, such as poverty, employment etc. but you can quite easily look at the Norwegian model and compare it to the UK

 

[USER1999]

But is a lower crime rate only lower because of a lack of repeat offenders, or is it lower because there are less first time offenders too?

 

[SocketRocket]

Your suggestions are misplaced. Some of the worst knife attacks have taken place outside of London over the past few years, where both the victim and the perpetrators were white. Do you think there is a racial element to that in terms of cultural issues, racial issues, or is it the same problem they had in Glasgow where they were white, and actually the race part of this is something where people look at the statistics in London, think it’s a black problem and actually it’s not?

And perhaps Norway has a lower crime rate because they are doing things right in terms of prison and punishment vs. rehabilitation, creating lower recidivism rates. Yes. I am sure there are many more variables that have to be considered, such as poverty, employment etc. but you can quite easily look at the Norwegian model and compare it to the UK

Regional variation in knife crime offences
Knife offences per 100,000 people by region, England and Wales, year ending March 2019

Source: Home Office
Knife crime tends to be more prevalent in large cities, particularly in London.
For every 100,000 people in the capital, there were 169 knife offences in 2018-19.
In 2018, figures from the mayor's office showed that young black and minority ethnic teenage boys and men were disproportionately affected, as both victims and perpetrators.
The Metropolitan Police Chief Commissioner Cressida Dick has said tackling violence in London is her "priority".
Next highest was the North West, with 93 knife offences per 100,000 population, and Yorkshire and the Humber, 86.

Knife offences per 100,000 people by region put London way ahead of any other in the country, for example its around double of that in the West Midlands.

Heres the complete BBC Report:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42749089

 

[woody69]

Regional variation in knife crime offences
Knife offences per 100,000 people by region, England and Wales, year ending March 2019

Source: Home Office
Knife crime tends to be more prevalent in large cities, particularly in London.
For every 100,000 people in the capital, there were 169 knife offences in 2018-19.
In 2018, figures from the mayor's office showed that young black and minority ethnic teenage boys and men were disproportionately affected, as both victims and perpetrators.
The Metropolitan Police Chief Commissioner Cressida Dick has said tackling violence in London is her "priority".
Next highest was the North West, with 93 knife offences per 100,000 population, and Yorkshire and the Humber, 86.

Knife offences per 100,000 people by region put London way ahead of any other in the country, for example its around double of that in the West Midlands.

Heres the complete BBC Report:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42749089

You're missing the point. Yes, there is a knife crime problem in London at the moment and it is predominantly being committed by young black men, but it's not a racial issue that is the cause. Glasgow had the same issue in 2005 and even back in the 60s and it was predominantly white youths. Was that a racial thing too?