Q : Cleanig the ball on the fairway ?

[Oops!]

On my last round, I was told that it costs 1 penalty stroke if I pick up the ball on the fairway or in the rough just to clean it.

This came as a bit of a surprise to me as I understood that according to Rule 14.1c, a ball lifted from anywhere else as the green may *always* be cleaned except for the reasons expressly stated there ?!?

Have I misinterpreted this ? What is correct ? Can I pick up the ball from the fairway or rough without penalty (only) to clean it if none of the exceptions listed in Rule 14.1c apply or will it cost me 1 penalty stroke ?

 

[MACM85]

On my last round, I was told that it costs 1 penalty stroke if I pick up the ball on the fairway or in the rough just to clean it.

This came as a bit of a surprise to me as I understood that according to Rule 14.1c, a ball lifted from anywhere else as the green may *always* be cleaned except for the reasons expressly stated there ?!?

Have I misinterpreted this ? What is correct ? Can I pick up the ball from the fairway or rough without penalty (only) to clean it if none of the exceptions listed in Rule 14.1c apply or will it cost me 1 penalty stroke ?

If winter rules are in place then you can mark your ball in a cut area of the course and pick it up and clean it and return the ball no closer to the hole within the 6 inches of the marker

 

[rulie]

On my last round, I was told that it costs 1 penalty stroke if I pick up the ball on the fairway or in the rough just to clean it.

This came as a bit of a surprise to me as I understood that according to Rule 14.1c, a ball lifted from anywhere else as the green may *always* be cleaned except for the reasons expressly stated there ?!?

Have I misinterpreted this ? What is correct ? Can I pick up the ball from the fairway or rough without penalty (only) to clean it if none of the exceptions listed in Rule 14.1c apply or will it cost me 1 penalty stroke ?

It depends. If a Local Rule for lift, clean and place, or lift, clean and replace has been implemented by the Committee in charge of the course or competition, then there is no penalty. If such Local Rule has not been implemented, it's a breach of Rule 9.4b, one penalty stroke, and the ball must be replaced on its original spot.

 

[D-S]

If winter rules are in place then you can mark your ball in a cut area of the course and pick it up and clean it and return the ball no closer to the hole within the 6 inches of the marker

There is no obligation to mark the ball but it is advisable to do so.

 

[MACM85]

There is no obligation to mark the ball but it is advisable to do so.

The R&A

The R&A seeks to engage in and support activities for the benefit of the sport of golf from The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews.

www.randa.org

Looks like it is a requirement to mark the ball before hand

 

[nickjdavis]

The R&A

The R&A seeks to engage in and support activities for the benefit of the sport of golf from The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews.

www.randa.org

Looks like it is a requirement to mark the ball before hand

Only if it is to be RE-placed...i.e. put back in exactly the same place that it lay in.

When proceeding under so-called "winter rules" you are placing the ball in a different spot....there is no obligation to mark where your ball lay...but it is wise to do so to prevent someone claiming that you are placing outside the allowed distance (whatever that might be...6 inches, a scorecard length etc).

 

[D-S]

Only if it is to be RE-placed...i.e. put back in exactly the same place that it lay in.

When proceeding under so-called "winter rules" you are placing the ball in a different spot....there is no obligation to mark where your ball lay...but it is wise to do so to prevent someone claiming that you are placing outside the allowed distance (whatever that might be...6 inches, a scorecard length etc).

Beat me to it.

 

[Oops!]

How does this correspond to the first exception in Rule 9.4b – "Exception 1 – Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a Rule that:

Allows the ball to be lifted and then replaced on its original spot, (...) ?

Does Rule 14.1c, sentence 2 – “A ball lifted from anywhere else may always be cleaned” – not constitute precisely such an exception within the meaning of Rule 9.4b, Exception 1?

P. S.: No Winter rules here … ! (even if it‘s cold ! )

 

[nickjdavis]

How does this correspond to the first exception in Rule 9.4b – "Exception 1 – Player Allowed to Lift or Move Ball: There is no penalty when the player lifts the ball or causes it to move under a Rule that:

Allows the ball to be lifted and then replaced on its original spot, (...) ?

Does Rule 14.1c, sentence 2 – “A ball lifted from anywhere else may always be cleaned” – not constitute precisely such an exception within the meaning of Rule 9.4b, Exception 1?

9.4b Exception 1 says you don't get a penalty if you lift the ball when proceeding under a rule that allows the ball to be lifted.

14.1c simply says that you can clean the ball when proceeding under a rule that allows the ball to be lifted...with the exception of the 4 instances listed.

Rule 14 does not give any authority for a player to lift his ball whenever he likes in order to clean it.....which was your original question posed in the OP.

In short there has to be a valid reason for you to lift your ball....wanting to clean the ball is not a valid reason.

 

[doublebogey7]

On my last round, I was told that it costs 1 penalty stroke if I pick up the ball on the fairway or in the rough just to clean it.

This came as a bit of a surprise to me as I understood that according to Rule 14.1c, a ball lifted from anywhere else as the green may *always* be cleaned except for the reasons expressly stated there ?!?

Have I misinterpreted this ? What is correct ? Can I pick up the ball from the fairway or rough without penalty (only) to clean it if none of the exceptions listed in Rule 14.1c apply or will it cost me 1 penalty stroke ?

I am not sure anyone so far has adressed this, but you cannot lift a ball JUST to clean it unless a local rule is in place allowing you to do so. This is often called winter rules and or preferred lies. Rule 14.1c merely covers how to lift and place/drop/replace, it does not authorise a player to left a ball merely to clean it.

Edit:Apologies nickdavis, I hadn't got as far as your post when posting this, but you have it spot on.

 

[jim8flog]

The R&A

The R&A seeks to engage in and support activities for the benefit of the sport of golf from The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews.

www.randa.org

Looks like it is a requirement to mark the ball before hand

The deletion of the need to mark the position of the ball when it is being moved to another location was one the 2020 rules changes.

 

[clubchamp98]

A very misunderstood rule.
Would be so much simpler to state the ball must be marked in the general area before lifting.

Why is it that you don’t have to mark it under winter rules.?

 

[salfordlad]

A very misunderstood rule.
Would be so much simpler to state the ball must be marked in the general area before lifting.

Why is it that you don’t have to mark it under winter rules?

IMO, it couldn't be simpler: if the ball MUST be returned to the same spot, you MUST mark that spot and get the ball back to that spot correctly. Adding additional rules without clear reason is a recipe for the great unwashed getting even more rules wrong.
Many experienced and sensible golfers will regularly mark for simple consistency of application but I see little point in raising the risk of unnecessary procedural penalties because you moved the ball two inches left without marking when preferred lies was in place.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

A very misunderstood rule.
Would be so much simpler to state the ball must be marked in the general area before lifting.

Why is it that you don’t have to mark it under winter rules.?

Because a player is trusted to place it not nearer the hole within the distance stipulated by the club under its local rule.

Besides (I think I am right with this - happy to be corrected) - when taking any form of free or penalty relief there is no requirement under the rules to mark your reference point or consequent limit of your relief area/distance. The fact that, in general, most of us do that is simply to avoid the same issue as might be raised by not marking the position of your ball prior to lifting it under a 'lift and place' winter rule.

When a player must mark the position of their ball is when a rule or local rule permits them to lift and replace their ball (as has been mentioned previously in this thread)

 

[doublebogey7]

IMO, it couldn't be simpler: if the ball MUST be returned to the same spot, you MUST mark that spot and get the ball back to that spot correctly. Adding additional rules without clear reason is a recipe for the great unwashed getting even more rules wrong.
Many experienced and sensible golfers will regularly mark for simple consistency of application but I see little point in raising the risk of unnecessary procedural penalties because you moved the ball two inches left without marking when preferred lies was in place.

Absolutley agree, another consideration is the effect of marking everytime on the pace of play.

 

[jim8flog]

A very misunderstood rule.
Would be so much simpler to state the ball must be marked in the general area before lifting.

Why is it that you don’t have to mark it under winter rules.?

as already said
The rule was changed in 2020 and does not just apply to winter rules - if the ball is being moved to a new location there is no longer a requirement to mark the original poisition of the ball - e.g in unplayable lie, obstruction interference etc.

 

[clubchamp98]

Absolutley agree, another consideration is the effect of marking everytime on the pace of play.

I’d say it’s the opposite .

 

[Steven Rules]

The deletion of the need to mark the position of the ball when it is being moved to another location was one the 2020 rules changes.

The rule was changed in 2020 and does not just apply to winter rules - if the ball is being moved to a new location there is no longer a requirement to mark the original poisition of the ball - e.g in unplayable lie, obstruction interference etc.

It seems a while since I have contributed so, just to be pernickity, the modernised Rules were introduced in January 2019, not 2020.

Interestingly (?), pre-2019 Rule 20-1 said 'The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to he replaced', which is pretty much what current Rule 14.1a says: 'Before lifting a ball under a Rule requiring the ball to be replaced on its original spot, the player must mark the spot'

The difference back then was that Specimen Local Rule 3b for Preferred Lies and Winter Rules specifically said 'Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position.' Whereas today, Rule 14.1a says 'When a ball is lifted to take relief under a Rule, the player is not required to mark the spot before lifting the ball.'

The pre-2019 Rules are fading in my memory but, as I recall, there was never a requirement to mark the ball before lifting it for unplayable, obstruction, etc.

 

[doublebogey7]

I’d say it’s the opposite .

Your not seriously saying marking takes less time than not marking?? If you are can you explain how, as I can't see it.

 

[clubchamp98]

Your not seriously saying marking takes less time than not marking?? If you are can you explain how, as I can't see it.

I have seen lots of players looking for the place their ball was after picking it up and going to their bag to clean it.
Then just guessing where it was.

Just mark it .

Can you explain how marking your ball takes more time as your bending down to pick up the ball anyway ?
How long does it take to put a tee in the ground before picking up the ball?

It then saves time because you know where your ball was.

Prob 2 seconds to mark and place back your ball while your pps play is that really holding anyone up and slowing down the pace of play.?