Provisional or not?

[chrisd]

What a stupid rule.
It defeats the object of saving time.
I wonder how often its used

I suspect it was changed to standardise the earlier change where a player could return to play a provisional in certain situations. I doubt whether many return now as 3 minutes is going to restrict the ability to get back in time

 

[Colin L]

You can indeed return to play a provisional ball at any time within the 3 minutes of a search. It may not be as unlikely as is being thought: you might be searching for a ball you hit only 50 yards into the undergrowth. A lost ball does not only happen after a 250 yard drive!

Regarding the original question,the player must check the identity of a ball that has been found and the search time stops while he does so. Since the found ball has not yet been identified, the player, in my view, may play a provisional - it remains the fact that his ball might be lost outside a penalty area. I reckon, however, that the search time continues until he has played the provisional ball, stopping only when he then goes to identify the ball that has been found.

 

[chrisd]

Cheers Colin

 

[chrisd]

I assume, just to finalise this, that because he played on with the provisional even though it was his original ball that was found he played a wrong ball and, as a result, given it was Stableford, that he blobbed the hole with the penalties applied?

 

[clubchamp98]

I assume, just to finalise this, that because he played on with the provisional even though it was his original ball that was found he played a wrong ball and, as a result, given it was Stableford, that he blobbed the hole with the penalties applied?

Yes that’s how I see it.
I can’t understand why he did not play his original ball .
That’s the main reason for a provisional as a back up if you lose your original ball.
But if you find your original why would you carry on with your provisional?

 

[chrisd]

Yes that’s how I see it.
I can’t understand why he did not play his original ball .
That’s the main reason for a provisional as a back up if you lose your original ball.
But if you find your original why would you carry on with your provisional?

Like many, he had no idea of the rules and just did what he thought was right

 

[Colin L]

I assume, just to finalise this, that because he played on with the provisional even though it was his original ball that was found he played a wrong ball and, as a result, given it was Stableford, that he blobbed the hole with the penalties applied?

Not according to 18.2a. He is required to go and identify a ball that has been found in the 3 minute search period within a reasonable time. If he does not do so, the ball, if his original, is lost. He continues with his provisional ball which is now his ball in play.

 

[backwoodsman]

So, I guess that begs the question as to what is a reasonable time in this case. I understand as soon as he hit his provisional he walked down and checked the ball that was found, it was his original ball but he continued with the provisional believing it to be the ball in play (not sure why he thought that) so, if he checked it within a reasonable time surely he should have continued with the original ball?

As others have said, yes, it's now ok to go back to play a provisional.

The purpose of the "reasonable time" is to allow the player time to identify a found ball without being caught out by the 3 mins search time expiring. Eg a ball is found after say 2min 55 sec and the player is 50 yards away - without the "reasonable time" he'd never get there before the 3 mins is up. The length will be variable - effectively as long as it's done fairly promptly, it will be ok. Fanny about & you risk it not being "reasonable"

In what's described above, seems to me that he played a provisional, then a ball was found - presumably within 3 mins - and he fairly promptly went across to look. Sounds like he did it in "reasonable time ". He identified it as his. All is ok so far. The problem then arose because he chose not to play it. By playing on with the provisional, I think he was playing a wrong ball with the ensuing appropriate penalty

 

[chrisd]

So, he continued with his provisional past where his original lay, even though he identified his original ball, so the provisional became the ball in play ?

 

[jim8flog]

I think it may well be against the rules on the basis.

7.2 How to Identify Ball

A player’s ball at rest may be identified in any one of these ways:

• By the player or anyone else seeing a ball come to rest in circumstances where it is known to be the player’s ball.


• By seeing the player’s identifying mark on the ball (see Rule 6.3a).


• By finding a ball with the same brand, model, number and condition as the player’s ball in an area where the player’s ball is expected to be (but this does not apply if an identical ball is in the same area and there is no way to know which one is the player’s ball).

 

[bobmac]

So, he continued with his provisional past where his original lay, even though he identified his original ball, so the provisional became the ball in play ?

Surely if he has identified his original ball, he cannot play his provisional. Please tell me that hasn't changed too?

 

[chrisd]

I think it may well be against the rules on the basis.

7.2 How to Identify Ball

A player’s ball at rest may be identified in any one of these ways:

• By the player or anyone else seeing a ball come to rest in circumstances where it is known to be the player’s ball.


• By seeing the player’s identifying mark on the ball (see Rule 6.3a).


• By finding a ball with the same brand, model, number and condition as the player’s ball in an area where the player’s ball is expected to be (but this does not apply if an identical ball is in the same area and there is no way to know which one is the player’s ball).

As I understand, the 2 fellow competitors found a ball but the player was back on the tee about to hit a provisional. I can't confirm that the 2 players could positively identify the ball and in any event the player decided to hit the "provisional" anyway, not least because it would save a 2nd walk back to the tee to put another ball into play if the found ball wasn't his. If it was a provisional I assume that as soon as he plays a shot with it, past where his original ball was, then it automatically became the ball in play. if, however, the "provisional" wasn't a provisional wouldn't it have automatically become the "ball in play" as soon as he struck it off the tee?

 

[badgergm]

Not according to 18.2a. He is required to go and identify a ball that has been found in the 3 minute search period within a reasonable time. If he does not do so, the ball, if his original, is lost. He continues with his provisional ball which is now his ball in play.

This seems strange. Does this not allow the player to effectively 'choose' the provisional that he has smashed down the middle (or close the hole on a par 3), rather than be forced to play the original ball? So this prevents fellow competitors from protecting the field by searching for a ball that a player doesn't want to find?

 

[chrisd]

This seems strange. Does this not allow the player to effectively 'choose' the provisional that he has smashed down the middle (or close the hole on a par 3), rather than be forced to play the original ball? So this prevents fellow competitors from protecting the field by searching for a ball that a player doesn't want to find?

but a player is never forced to play his original ball, he can always declare it unplayable and take the allowed options under the rules or just reload without declaring a provisional. Also, he is now playing under penalty when he plays out the hole with a provisional, and he could always hit his provisional once it was past where his original ball was thought to be and then it would be the ball in play anyway.

 

[badgergm]

but a player is never forced to play his original ball, he can always declare it unplayable and take the allowed options under the rules or just reload without declaring a provisional. Also, he is now playing under penalty when he plays out the hole with a provisional, and he could always hit his provisional once it was past where his original ball was thought to be and then it would be the ball in play anyway.

Yes, but is he not forced to take one of those options if the ball is found (assuming he has declared a provisional and not just reloaded)?
If the original ball is found and he wants to take S&D then he must go back to the tee - he can't use his provisional. So by refusing to identify his ball then he is 'choosing' his provisional?

 

[chrisd]

Yes, but is he not forced to take one of those options if the ball is found (assuming he has declared a provisional and not just reloaded)?
If the original ball is found and he wants to take S&D then he must go back to the tee - he can't use his provisional. So by refusing to identify his ball then he is 'choosing' his provisional?

In this case he didnt "choose" the provisional over the original ball in the sense of picking from 2 balls, he played the provisional as "the ball in play" which, in his opinion, it had become

 

[badgergm]

Yes, I understand that, but I've moved on slightly to discuss more general scenario arising from Colin's statement:

"Not according to 18.2a. He is required to go and identify a ball that has been found in the 3 minute search period within a reasonable time. If he does not do so, the ball, if his original, is lost. He continues with his provisional ball which is now his ball in play."

and the fact that this would seem to allow a player to 'choose' whether to play an original ball which has been found by someone other than himself, or a provisional ball. I didn't think you could do that.

 

[Colin L]

This is getting very confusing because it is not to me clear what actually happened.

Did the player or did not he not identify the found ball as his original ball? My understanding was that he did not.
If not, did anyone else positively identify it as his and tell him so?

There is no question of his being allowed to choose between a provisional ball and a ball found and identified within the search period.

 

[badgergm]

This is getting very confusing because it is not to me clear what actually happened.

Did the player or did not he not identify the found ball as his original ball? My understanding was that he did not.
If not, did anyone else positively identify it as his and tell him so?

There is no question of his being allowed to choose between a provisional ball and a ball found and identified within the search period.

I'm trying to reconcile the statements

"the player must check the identity of a ball that has been found" (my emphasis)

and

"If he does not do so, the ball, if his original, is lost."

i.e. someone else found the ball which they thought might be his (can they formally identify it?); and the player can just ignore that, not identify it and hence the ball will be deemed lost in due course.

 

[Swango1980]

I do see badgergm's point. In one line it says the player MUST identify the ball when found within a reasonable time, and then in the very next line implies if they don't, it simply becomes lost and they can use the provisional. So, that implies that they can choose to play on with the provisional IF the original is potentially found (before being formally identified) but in a much worse spot.

However, the confusion is cleared uo when you read the Interpretations. It is confirmed that a player may ask others not to look for the original ball, but there is no obligation for them to comply. If a ball is found, the player MUST identify it. If they do not, it may be considered a serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game (Rule 1.2a)