provisional holed

[duncan mackie]

Duncan, I was trying to clear up the question that 6inch asked about who would be considered "the bad boy" for doing what they would be entitled to do ie look for the ball. Imurg in an earlier posting said that if his playing partner looked when he aced the prov ball he wouldn't play with them again. I was not personally giving my opinion but trying to shed light on how it may be viewed.

Having said that I dont share your view that the prov ball is not to be an "option" as it has to be. The rules are there to be used and either hurt or help you, we get hurt by them often enough and if you can use a rule in your favour I absolutely feel that it is perfectly ok to do so!

"....providing you are content to live with that then you thats fine" strikes me as "personally giving my opinion".

I was giving my reasons for disagreeing with that opinion.

As discussed at length, both players would be acting within the rules; I find it strange that people would believe that one is acting inherently more right, sporting, correctly than the other.

Anyhow, it's not a rules question per se so disagreement isn't an issue

 

[chrisd]

"....providing you are content to live with that then you thats fine" strikes me as "personally giving my opinion".

I was giving my reasons for disagreeing with that opinion.

As discussed at length, both players would be acting within the rules; I find it strange that people would believe that one is acting inherently more right, sporting, correctly than the other.

Anyhow, it's not a rules question per se so disagreement isn't an issue

I was just giving my reason for not agreeing with you, disagreeing with the opinion that I neither agreed or disagreed with, as the opinion was Imurgs with whom i never agree or disagree with unless I am in total agreementthat I should disagree

But you are right, it is strange that there is a possible "code of conduct" in relation to following the rules.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Interesting thread.

Regarding running up to the hole and picking the provisional out.....

If it's matchplay and I run up to the green and pick out my ball while my opponent is looking for the original and has yet to play her approach to the green.... am I technically playing out of turn?

 

[Imurg]

If I played with anyone who insisted on looking for my ball in this situation, I'd have my doubts as to whether I'd play with them again.

Imurg in an earlier posting said that if his playing partner looked when he aced the prov ball he wouldn't play with them again.

Just to clarify.......

In a last-hole Winner takes all scenario then I would expect my Oppo to look as I would too.
Midway round though............

 

[duncan mackie]

Interesting thread.

Regarding running up to the hole and picking the provisional out.....

If it's matchplay and I run up to the green and pick out my ball while my opponent is looking for the original and has yet to play her approach to the green.... am I technically playing out of turn?

yes but....

your opponent may request you to replay the 'shot' (put the ball back in the hole!) but you have 'played it' so the original ball is now lost.

 

[chrisd]

Just to clarify.......

In a last-hole Winner takes all scenario then I would expect my Oppo to look as I would too.

Can I clarify further

Would you look for your ball in that situation or just his if the situation was reversed?

I can't say that I wouldn't just whip my ball out of the cup and claim the match as thats perfectly allowable as per the rules.

 

[duncan mackie]

Just to clarify.......

In a last-hole Winner takes all scenario then I would expect my Oppo to look as I would too.
Midway round though............

and in an attempt to bring our views closer (and possibly even meet!) I wouldn't really have a problem with someone in this specific situation shrugging their shoulders and walking straight to the hole either - it was the suggestion that any player looking for an opponent or fellow competitors ball (that they didn't want to look for) was somehow a nasty person; as opposed to the player not looking for a ball when they had hit a great 'provisional' wasn't.

 

[mcbroon]

afraid I disagree Chris - the first inference would lie with the player who, having decided to hit a provisional ball rather than 3 off the tee, changes his decision based on the outcome of his provisional. The rules permit a provisional ball to save time, and go out of their way to avoid the provision of such judgement calls in many situations. As a fellow competitor you have a responsibility to the rest of the field as well as your own interests.

As you can see I have a problem with players deliberately playing a provisional to provide 'an option' rather than just to save time walking back if they can't find their first. I've no problem with a cursory glance, walk through, walk by - but when they smack their best down the middle and immediately state 'I'll leave the first one' I may well make that cursory glance for him!

Not that I disagree with you on the whole, Duncan, but why would anyone not look for the first ball (unless they've 'aced' a par 3, as per the OP)? If you find it and hack out, you'll be playing your third from the fairway. If you just abandon it on hitting a decent provisional, your next shot will be your fourth, so you're effectively incurring yourself a potentially unnecessary extra shot.

Even if I hit a lifetime drive with a provisional, I'd still look for the original on a par 4 or 5.

 

[duncan mackie]

Not that I disagree with you on the whole, Duncan, but why would anyone not look for the first ball (unless they've 'aced' a par 3, as per the OP)? If you find it and hack out, you'll be playing your third from the fairway. If you just abandon it on hitting a decent provisional, your next shot will be your fourth, so you're effectively incurring yourself a potentially unnecessary extra shot.

Even if I hit a lifetime drive with a provisional, I'd still look for the original on a par 4 or 5.

good point!

the sort of situation that this happens in (and I had an example today) is where a player knows in his heart that even if he finds the ball he's probably going to take an unplayable back on the tee - lot of such ground out there right now!

some have the view that if they play a provisional, and hit it badly, then 5 mins of hunting may well pay off and they can go back to the tee and have another go - if they hit a good one they just ignore the first.

absolutely agree that there are shades of this, and in today's game (medal) the player hit a good shot a little left, picked up by the cross wind and it's in the heavy rough. Played a provisional to the green - great shot for him. He now did what I consider the appropriate thing and went over for a quick look for the first 'just in case', saw how bad it was and spent maybe 30 secs before stating - not sure I really want to find it in here, I'd never be able to get it out so let's move on... we all moved on with him.

A few weeks back someone actually did find one in a similar situation (about 30ft off the fairway) buried in the roots of the grass. They made the mistake of 'trying to get it out', failed and then realised their dilemma.... refusing to take 8 penalty drops to get out 2cl at a time, risk wasting one by trying to drop where the last shot was attempted in the hope of a lie to get it out - back in a line wasn't an option as it was heavy rough all the way to the OOB fence... anyway they kept going and ended up with an 18 on the hole. Those used to such rough will all of tried this once!

Anyway - there are situations where finding it is only likely to result in returning to the tee; quite a few actually.

 

[North Mimms]

A few weeks back someone actually did find one in a similar situation (about 30ft off the fairway) buried in the roots of the grass. They made the mistake of 'trying to get it out', failed and then realised their dilemma.... refusing to take 8 penalty drops to get out 2cl at a time, risk wasting one by trying to drop where the last shot was attempted in the hope of a lie to get it out - back in a line wasn't an option as it was heavy rough all the way to the OOB fence... anyway they kept going and ended up with an 18 on the hole. Those used to such rough will all of tried this once!

.

I made exactly the same mistake last season. Hit first ball into long grass where it might not be found, played a provisional into a deep fairway bunker so thought it best to have a look for first one and hope it was half decent.
It was found in a rubbish lie with 2CL or back on line not providing a better option.
My head was a bit scrambled and going back to play from previous position off the tee didn't occur to me, so I hacked my way slowly out of the rough and finally ended up with 13.
If it happens again, the first thing I will consider is going back to the tee, even a double bogey from there would have only given me an 8!