provisional holed

[Colin L]

Colin, must admit, given your excellent knowledge of the Rules, I did read the decision a couple of times just to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

]

Thanks for the compliment but the knowledge has to be applied to the right circumstances. Unfortunately any mistakes I make are usually of that kind - misreading, misinterpreting or even mishearing what has happened rather than not knowing a rule. The mishearing one happened recently when I thought one of the guys I was playing with said that he had hit the sand in a bunker with his backswing when in fact he had said the ball had come back off the face of the bunker and hit him.

 

[chrisd]

Do I get a slap too for answering incorrectly!

Nope P

Getting the answer wrong is nowhere near as bad as suggesting that doing something that is perfectly ok and within the rules, is as good as cheating, just because you gain an advantage.

It's either ok or it's not!

 

[6inchcup]

so to put it in a nutshell,the provisional counts as a 3,i as the opponent HAS the right to look for the original ball even if the said owner of the ball doesn't wish to look for it,the ball is found within the allocated 5 mins and is playable all be it ankle deep thick rough,SO according to some i am in the wrong for playing by the rules????

 

[chrisd]

so to put it in a nutshell,the provisional counts as a 3,i as the opponent HAS the right to look for the original ball even if the said owner of the ball doesn't wish to look for it,the ball is found within the allocated 5 mins and is playable all be it ankle deep thick rough,SO according to some i am in the wrong for playing by the rules????

Providing the player hasn't holed out and taken his ball out of the cup or played it nearer to the hole than his first ball was thought to be.

No you are not wrong by playing to the rules, there are people who would be offended if they got a hole in one with the prov ball but the decision is yours whether you look for the first ball and upset them. I suppose it all depends on who they are, state of the match and how much you want to win.

 

[6inchcup]

Providing the player hasn't holed out and taken his ball out of the cup or played it nearer to the hole than his first ball was thought to be.

No you are not wrong by playing to the rules, there are people who would be offended if they got a hole in one with the prov ball but the decision is yours whether you look for the first ball and upset them. I suppose it all depends on who they are, state of the match and how much you want to win.

so a rule can be forgotten or a blind eye turned if it upsets someone? or if we did not adhere to the rules would we both be dq'd or penalised by shots or who would lose the hole in matchplay?

 

[Whereditgo]

Pretty much - what you can't do is agree between you to disregard a rule - then you both get DQ'd.

 

[6inchcup]

Pretty much - what you can't do is agree between you to disregard a rule - then you both get DQ'd.

so by us both deciding not to look for the first ball WE have colluded and therefore we both should be dq'd.

 

[chrisd]

Pretty much - what you can't do is agree between you to disregard a rule - then you both get DQ'd.

But you can both disregard a breach of rule so long as you dont agree to do it

 

[6inchcup]

so we can forget this rule unless i say "TAKE YOUR TIME" d'oh!

 

[Whereditgo]

so by us both deciding not to look for the first ball WE have colluded and therefore we both should be dq'd.

No, because playing on with a provisional is completely within the rules.

Might be different if stood on the first tee you agree between you that for this round you are on no occasion going to look for a first ball though.

 

[6inchcup]

No, because playing on with a provisional is completely within the rules.

Might be different if stood on the first tee you agree between you that for this round you are on no occasion going to look for a first ball though.

my point is ,it is not the decision of who hit the ball it is up to his /her opponent if they wish to look for it,and if found the ball is in play THEN decision by the owner of the ball can be made.

 

[Whereditgo]

my point is ,it is not the decision of who hit the ball it is up to his /her opponent if they wish to look for it,and if found the ball is in play THEN decision by the owner of the ball can be made.

I can tell it's Friday, I am having a wooden headed day! Not at all understanding what you are saying here.

If the first ball is found within 5 minutes of starting the search, then there is no decision to be made it remains the ball in play

EDIT: Provided nothing has been done meanwhile that brings the provisional into play

 

[Colin L]

Am I reading correctly this time? 6inchcup, you are talking about turning a blind eye to a rule, and collusion but I'm not clear what rule you are talking about. Maybe I can redeem myself for the red face earlier and clarify with a summary.

1)You are allowed within the rules not to look for your original ball, so if you have holed your provisional for a potential 3, you are perfectly entitled to leg it at a great rate of gazelles up to the hole and pick your ball out. If you do that before your original is found, the provisional is in play and is holed out for a 3.

2) At the same time, your opponent or fellow competitor is perfectly entitled to look for your original ball and if he finds it within 5 minutes, before you have played the PB from nearer the hole or the place it is likely to be or in this instance before you have picked your provisional out of the hole, that is the ball in play and you must play it. It is not a Rule and it is not mentioned in the Etiquette section of the Rules, but my understanding of the convention is that a) in match play it is accepted that your opponent might well try to find your original and by doing so is not doing anything unsportsmanlike and b) in stroke play it is accepted that if the player does not want to look for his original ball, no-one else looks for it.

3) There is no agreement to bend, or disregard a rule when your fellow competitors (or opponent if he is being very generous) go along with your decision not to look for an original ball because no Rule has been breached. So there can be no collusion, no breach of Rule 1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules.

4) It wouldn't make any difference if someone said on the first tee he didn't intend looking for his original ball at any time as that is within the Rules. But I for one would be pointing to him that he had the option under the Rules just to put another ball in play under stroke and distance.

 

[Whereditgo]

^ Basically what I was trying to say (except for some reason I have to hit every key many times before I can type anything on this site today, so needed to be succinct!)

Re the collusion, bad example on my part perhaps (did say "might be different" though) the point being, as Colin states, you can ignore a rule infringement made by a player, but you can't agree between you to waive a rule.

 

[Colin L]

the point being, as Colin states, you can ignore a rule infringement made by a player, but you can't agree between you to waive a rule.

Ahem. I didn't actually say that.

 

[Whereditgo]

Ahem. I didn't actually say that.

Well you should have

 

[6inchcup]

thanks colin,my point was that made by some that if YOU didn't wish to look for the ball BUT i did i would be looked down on and not played with again.

 

[chrisd]

thanks colin,my point was that made by some that if YOU didn't wish to look for the ball BUT i did i would be looked down on and not played with again.

There is an inference of unsportsmanlike behaviour if the player didn't want you to look for his ball and you chose to do so. That would be for you to decide the merits of, as he would almost certainly have a higher score on the hole should you find it, and providing you are content to live with that then you thats fine

 

[duncan mackie]

There is an inference of unsportsmanlike behaviour if the player didn't want you to look for his ball and you chose to do so. That would be for you to decide the merits of, as he would almost certainly have a higher score on the hole should you find it, and providing you are content to live with that then you thats fine

afraid I disagree Chris - the first inference would lie with the player who, having decided to hit a provisional ball rather than 3 off the tee, changes his decision based on the outcome of his provisional. The rules permit a provisional ball to save time, and go out of their way to avoid the provision of such judgement calls in many situations. As a fellow competitor you have a responsibility to the rest of the field as well as your own interests.

As you can see I have a problem with players deliberately playing a provisional to provide 'an option' rather than just to save time walking back if they can't find their first. I've no problem with a cursory glance, walk through, walk by - but when they smack their best down the middle and immediately state 'I'll leave the first one' I may well make that cursory glance for him!

 

[chrisd]

afraid I disagree Chris - the first inference would lie with the player who, having decided to hit a provisional ball rather than 3 off the tee, changes his decision based on the outcome of his provisional. The rules permit a provisional ball to save time, and go out of their way to avoid the provision of such judgement calls in many situations. As a fellow competitor you have a responsibility to the rest of the field as well as your own interests.

As you can see I have a problem with players deliberately playing a provisional to provide 'an option' rather than just to save time walking back if they can't find their first. I've no problem with a cursory glance, walk through, walk by - but when they smack their best down the middle and immediately state 'I'll leave the first one' I may well make that cursory glance for him!

Duncan, I was trying to clear up the question that 6inch asked about who would be considered "the bad boy" for doing what they would be entitled to do ie look for the ball. Imurg in an earlier posting said that if his playing partner looked when he aced the prov ball he wouldn't play with them again. I was not personally giving my opinion but trying to shed light on how it may be viewed.

Having said that I dont share your view that the prov ball is not to be an "option" as it has to be. The rules are there to be used and either hurt or help you, we get hurt by them often enough and if you can use a rule in your favour I absolutely feel that it is perfectly ok to do so!