Alan Bates learnt of birthday honours knighthood as Post Office boss was grilled
The campaigner had travelled to hear former CEO Paula Vennells give evidence when he received the news.
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Post Office - Horizon scandal
- Thread starter Jensen
- Start date
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Ian Henderson & Ron Warmington, directors of Second Sight due to give evidence today.
Below is Ian Henderson’s, Director for Second Sight, evidence at this morning’s session. Some very interesting and explosive relevations. One that drew laughter; Sept 2012, there were 10 Post Office IT engineers working on the Helpdesk at Fujitsu. The laugh was that when this was discussed in a meeting between PO and Second Sight the PO IT manager didn’t know of them or that the PO had a presence at Fujitsu.
There was also an unsavoury relevation that Chris Aujard, Head of Law for the PO, told Second Sight to be very careful what they reveal of what they’d found as the PO wouldn’t be frightened to bankrupt Second Sight. By that time the PO were very unhappy with what Second Sight were finding and were looking to limit the scope of Second Sight’s investigation. The original scope was to find out what was happening irrespective of the consequences to the PO. However, once Paula Vennells knew what had been found, the PO changed tack to protecting the PO brand at all costs.
And a financial figure that Second Sight calculated that was SubPostmasters money that had been in the Suspense Account that was subsequently transferred into the PO profit & loss account… £300,000,000. It was a best guess based on tracking money from the SubPostmasters - the PO would not give the requested details to Second Sight.
To be honest, the vid is 2hrs 46mins of all the things the PO did wrong. It’s appalling, and it only covers a few years of the scandal.
There was also an unsavoury relevation that Chris Aujard, Head of Law for the PO, told Second Sight to be very careful what they reveal of what they’d found as the PO wouldn’t be frightened to bankrupt Second Sight. By that time the PO were very unhappy with what Second Sight were finding and were looking to limit the scope of Second Sight’s investigation. The original scope was to find out what was happening irrespective of the consequences to the PO. However, once Paula Vennells knew what had been found, the PO changed tack to protecting the PO brand at all costs.
And a financial figure that Second Sight calculated that was SubPostmasters money that had been in the Suspense Account that was subsequently transferred into the PO profit & loss account… £300,000,000. It was a best guess based on tracking money from the SubPostmasters - the PO would not give the requested details to Second Sight.
To be honest, the vid is 2hrs 46mins of all the things the PO did wrong. It’s appalling, and it only covers a few years of the scandal.
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Ye Olde Boomer
Well-known member
I never heard that story.
It sounds absolutely horrific.
It sounds absolutely horrific.
The afternoon session from today. Ron Warmington, director with Second Sight. It’s a tough watch as he does go round the houses a bit. Not much new in there, a few bits. What does come across is how adversarial the PO became with Second Sight. He does mention that Susan Crichton and a PO IT engineer were very open and supportive of the process. It was that relationship with Second Sight that got Crichton the sack.
The last 20 mins are interesting, especially Whalen the chair, Sir Wyn, asks a few questions.
The last 20 mins are interesting, especially Whalen the chair, Sir Wyn, asks a few questions.
Following the two Second Sight directors giving evidence to the Inquiry they, jointly gave an interview to Channel 4 news. Ron Warmington revealed to the Inquiry, and in the Interview, that it was he that started, covertly, recording phone calls with the PO. Below is the Interview given to Channel 4 news.
Just a brief aside, during Ian Henderson’s testimony he revealed that part of their scope of work was to review past prosecutions as part of the remediation scheme set up by the PO. Second Sight received two versions of a document. The first version showed that the PO had no evidence against Jo Hamilton, the SubPostmaster who was bullied into pleading guilty to false accounting and had to pay the PO £37,000. The second, final version that was given to the remediation board had had that section about no evidence removed.
Just a brief aside, during Ian Henderson’s testimony he revealed that part of their scope of work was to review past prosecutions as part of the remediation scheme set up by the PO. Second Sight received two versions of a document. The first version showed that the PO had no evidence against Jo Hamilton, the SubPostmaster who was bullied into pleading guilty to false accounting and had to pay the PO £37,000. The second, final version that was given to the remediation board had had that section about no evidence removed.
I’ve not watched the video, Bri, but read the extensive reporting of his evidence. Lovely to hear him use the word conspiracy in relation to PO management, because that is precisely what this is.
The evidence of Messrs Henderson and Warmington has done POL an enormous amount of damage, more so than perhaps the sub postmasters themselves, because Second Sight can not be accused of any bias, or holding any grudge against POL. They are forensic accountants who were asked to do a job, and merely did that job.
I tip my hat to the pair of them.
RichA
Well-known member
Just a shame that they believed the PO's confidentiality/ND contract with them should prevent them from revealing what they knew was a criminal conspiracy for a decade.
The Statuary Inquiry trumps the NDA. Yesterday, whilst giving evidence, one of them said he hoped the whistleblower laws are changed so that a NDA becomes null and void if there is evidence of law breaking.
Robster59
Tour Rookie
Thanks for keeping us updated. This is just showing, more and more, how the Post Office actively conspired to pervert the cause of justice. The protection of the Post Office reputation was, to them, far more important than the sub-postmasters statutory rights.
As much as a fair bit of each day’s evidence across the full Inquiry can be as dull as dish water, as each week’s evidence has come out more & more dots are connecting. You listen to one session, and some of it is, “eh what,” with no apparent relevance. On another day, something else comes out and you get the lightbulb moment. Watched in isolation, you’d miss it.
For example, Susan Crichton, General Counsel at the PO, was asked to manage Second Sight’s work for the PO. In her evidence she alludes to the fact she was marginalised, and worse, for highlighting the need for proper Disclosure and that Second Sight should be given what they ask for. This led to a disagreement with Vennells under instructions from Alice Perkins, Vennell’s boss and head of the PO. Vennells tells Crichton she’ll sort the breakdown in the relationship between Crichton and Perkins. At the same time Vennells is organising Crichton’s exit from the PO.
Ron Warmington, Second Sight, said yesterday that Susan Crichton & Glen xxxx, the PO IT engineer, were the only two PO employees that adhered to the original terms in the scope of work given to Second Sight.
That’s the short version from a number of witnesses, not just those listed above, to the Inquiry. And it covers testimony given over about 6 weeks. Miss a session and you miss a gem. The evidence that’s come about Aujard from a number of sources is very damning. And, again, miss a session and you miss connecting the dots.
@Hobbit the report is going to take some writing. It's all there, they just have to pull it together. It is like a novel with different strands in the chapters, all coming together at the end.
D-S
Well-known member
Wasn't it Simon Baker who was the 'good guy' in PO IT?
LIG
Q-School Graduate
Reading this thread - (I've tried to avoid watching too much of the testimony, mostly unsuccessfully) - always makes me depressed.
Makes me think about the husband of a close friend who died during the period in question. They ran a sub-post office and went from a huge success to... well, goodness knows where - they had to "sell" the shop, we were told, due to health issues. I remember back to before, us regularly visiting back and forth until, suddenly, it seemed they were always "busy" with the business. Their children, doctor and teacher, won't be holding their breaths for "justice" to be served, as losing parents who were in their late 50s early 60s (and whose grandparents had lived into their 80s) is just immeasureable.
I suppose it's just possible ALL the wronged sub post masters (or their families) will have been completely exonerated, repaid and adequately compensated by the time I kick the bucket - possibly another decade (and a half)! That includes those that were forced out without prosecution or by the threat of it.
Just think - there are still many of instances of such travesties being uncovered today relating to what the British did in India. The East India Company - given authority by the government to provide profit however they liked. Similar to the PO situation.
Makes me think about the husband of a close friend who died during the period in question. They ran a sub-post office and went from a huge success to... well, goodness knows where - they had to "sell" the shop, we were told, due to health issues. I remember back to before, us regularly visiting back and forth until, suddenly, it seemed they were always "busy" with the business. Their children, doctor and teacher, won't be holding their breaths for "justice" to be served, as losing parents who were in their late 50s early 60s (and whose grandparents had lived into their 80s) is just immeasureable.
I suppose it's just possible ALL the wronged sub post masters (or their families) will have been completely exonerated, repaid and adequately compensated by the time I kick the bucket - possibly another decade (and a half)! That includes those that were forced out without prosecution or by the threat of it.
Just think - there are still many of instances of such travesties being uncovered today relating to what the British did in India. The East India Company - given authority by the government to provide profit however they liked. Similar to the PO situation.
You could be right. I had it in my head it was either a Glen or a Simon, but the only Simon I could remember is Simon Clarke. Clarke, I thought, was a solicitor(KC) who gave advice to the PO. I think it’s him that wrote the (strong) advice about Disclosure and about not shredding minutes of meetings.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
You can find plenty of historic travesties without searching overseas.
Take the thousands who died in unsafe mines in South Wales. "Unsafe" because making them safer would have cut the owner's profits.
Add to that the illnesses from mining that cut lives short.
6,000 deaths is just a small geographic percentage of UK lives lost working in mines, factories, building sites etc
Ferndale was my mum's village. 231 deaths in two disasters. Strong collective memories of those incidents when my mum grew up in 1920s and 1930s.
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OMG!
One of the top Fujitsu guys is currently giving evidence. They are currently discussing emails from 2010 in which there’s a back and forth about who pays compensation to the SubPostmasters for accounting issues with the new version of Horizon. Both sides knew then, right at the start of the most heinous phase.
One of the top Fujitsu guys is currently giving evidence. They are currently discussing emails from 2010 in which there’s a back and forth about who pays compensation to the SubPostmasters for accounting issues with the new version of Horizon. Both sides knew then, right at the start of the most heinous phase.
Below is this afternoon’s session with evidence heard from Duncan Tait, mega-boss with Fujitsu. I’ve not posted up this morning’s session with Richard Christou, Fujitsu. Christou is joined Fujitsu when the animals came off the ark. 99.99% of his evidence revolved around ICL merging with Fujitsu and the structure of the company thereafter. If you want to view it on YouTube, I’d recommend just watching the last 5mins.
A constant, contradictory theme throughout Tait’s session was Fujitsu had great internal Comms but no one told me of Horizon issues.
A constant, contradictory theme throughout Tait’s session was Fujitsu had great internal Comms but no one told me of Horizon issues.
Robster59
Tour Rookie
You really couldn't make this up!
Post Office accidentally leaks sub-postmaster data
Post Office accidentally leaks sub-postmaster data
Accidentally? The Post Office has piled mountains of pressure on the convicted SubPostmasters for years. They’ve lied about every aspect of when they knew about bugs and errors. They’ve altered, withheld or deleted evidence. They’ve been horrendously late with Disclosure of documents to the Inquiry. And they’ve bullied subbies mercilessly. And the evidence put to the Inquiry from the main players from the PO And from Fujitsu(yesterday afternoon) beggars belief, often contradicted by documentary evidence… this needs to be a Delorien tort case.
Do I believe this is “accidentally?” They are either the most incompetent management teams I’ve ever come across, or they are beyond despicable. I’ll go for the latter.
