Please help settle a dispute regarding taking relief from a path under rule 16 1a

[doublebogey7]

One refers to where the ball currently lies, the other refers to where you think it will be after you drop it.

The Definition of Nearest point of relief from the 2016 Rules of Golf.

The “nearest point of relief” is the reference point for taking relief
without penalty from interference by an immovable obstruction (Rule
24-2), an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1) or a wrong putting green
(Rule 25-3).
It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:
(i) that is not nearer the hole, and
(ii) where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the
condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke
the player would have made from the original position if the
condition were not there.

Although the wording is different from the 2019 version, the meaning is the same.

 

[bobmac]

Previously you would measure with the club you intend to use after you've made the drop.

Don't agree.
You establish the npr with the club you would use if the cart path wasn't there

 

[rulie]

One refers to where the ball currently lies, the other refers to where you think it will be after you drop it.

I don't understand how you can be reading it that way. Imo, it's very simple:
1. Find the nearest point of complete relief - the point where the ball would be located when you have taken complete relief for the lie of the ball, area of intended stance and swing, using the club and shot that you would have used for the ball on the cart path, that is nearest to where the ball lies on the cart path and is not nearer the hole.
2. Use that nearest point of complete relief as the reference point and drop a ball within one club-length measured by the longest club in your bag (except a putter) and not nearer the hole.

After doing this, you may make any stroke you wish with any club you wish.

 

[Whereditgo]

From the Definitions in the Rules of Golf 2016 33rd Edition:

Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the
player should use the club with which he would have made his next
stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position,
direction of play and swing for such a stroke.

To me that is the sand wedge in your example to determine the reference point.

Edit - Beaten to it by Doublebogey7 at post #31

 

[Whereditgo]

So you've changed your mind ?
You and I both know that was NEVER how it previously worked.
We picked up our ball, we stood with our heels just clear of the area /path and we took an address position with the club we intended to hit the next shot with.
There was never, ever any consideration of looking at the ball sitting on the path and thinking what club we'd use.

There should have been though according to the Rules - and that is exactly what Bob was saying in his first post.

 

[Foxholer]

The Definition of Nearest point of relief from the 2016 Rules of Golf.

The “nearest point of relief” is the reference point for taking relief
without penalty from interference by an immovable obstruction (Rule
24-2), an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1) or a wrong putting green
(Rule 25-3).
It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:
(i) that is not nearer the hole, and
(ii) where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the
condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke
the player would have made from the original position if the
condition were not there.

Although the wording is different from the 2019 version, the meaning is the same.

Those Rules are no longer applicable - superseded by 2020 ones - though the effect is pretty similar.

 

[Foxholer]

This is the only point that I am talking about, I've made it very clear in a few posts.
Previously there was no consideration to the club you would choose from the path, you measured with the club you intended to hit AFTER the drop.

How would you know that?! It would have toi be 'wished to hit'! And the 'plus 1 club length' generally gave you sufficient scope.

 

[bobmac]

So you've changed your mind ?
You and I both know that was NEVER how it previously worked.
We picked up our ball, we stood with our heels just clear of the area /path and we took an address position with the club we intended to hit the next shot with.
There was never, ever any consideration of looking at the ball sitting on the path and thinking what club we'd use.

I haven't changed my mind at all and I disagree with everything in that post

 

[Leftie]

You are just so wrong. I would have beaten others to it but have been searching for a 2016 rule book.

".... the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to emulate the address position, direction ...."

 

[Foxholer]

What on earth are you talking about?

Read the updated post!

 

[rulie]

This is the only point that I am talking about, I've made it very clear in a few posts.
Previously there was no consideration to the club you would choose from the path, you measured with the club you intended to hit AFTER the drop.

No, that is not correct. Maybe that's what you did, but it was not according to the Rules.

Here's what the 2016 Rules say about the nearest point of relief (in part):
"where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.
Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not here to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke."

Also, "measuring" with a club doesn't take place until after you've established the nearest point of complete relief.

 

[Leftie]

I think that the 2019 change was to clarify the definition for those who wanted to interpret it in their own way. Hope you haven't won any comps or money using your interpretation .....

 

[Leftie]

Where is that from please?
Ie which rule, relating to which condition?

2016 Rules of Golf. Page 39. Definitions - Nearest point of relief. Note to definition.

Been playing to that definition as long as I can remember.

 

[Leftie]

Would you like a photograph of the page?? It seems that you are the only one in step

 

[Foxholer]

This wording does not specify that you MUST stand there with the club that you would use to hit the ball from the Abnormal Ground Condition....

This only provides the means to determine whether relief is actually allowed!
Once that test is passed, there is another step (sic) that determines where the relief area is.

 

[Foxholer]

2016 Rules of Golf. Page 39. Definitions - Nearest point of relief. Note to definition.

Been playing to that definition as long as I can remember.

Why are you using an out of date - so 'no longer applicable' - Rules of Golf?

 

[Foxholer]

Would you like a photograph of the page?? It seems that you are the only one in step

Here's a link to the current rule!
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-16

Btw. Are you still applying the 'A Single Player has no standing' Rule amongst other out of date ones?

 

[doublebogey7]

This wording does not specify that you MUST stand there with the club that you would use to hit the ball from the Abnormal Ground Condition.
This proves my point, there has been a very subtle wording change so that now you must measure with the club you WOULD HAVE used, but previously you measured with the club you INTEND to use.

"where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the
condition from which relief is sought would exist FOR THE STROKE THE PLAYER WOULD HAVE MADE FROM THE ORIGINAL POSITION
the player would have made from the original position"

This clearly says you use the club you would have used to determine your NPR.

 

[rulefan]

Searching round the Internet for the previous rules, here is an example of what was previously in place (I acknowledge it is not taken directly from the R&A or USGA) :
"Remember that the nearest point of relief is the spot where the ball would lie when you take a stance, with the club you would normally use to hit the upcoming shot, in the direction you would be hitting it, and not be interfered with by the cart path in any way."

This is CLEARLY different to what appears to be the current rule, ie you must measure with the club you would use if the obstruction wasn't there, ie the ball was in the same position but there was no path under it.

This is the problem when not comparing like with like. ie in this case a definition with a definition as opposed to some unofficial quote.
As I said, the meaning is the same in both definitions.

Copied directly from my pre 2019 Rules of Golf

Nearest Point of Relief
It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:
(i) that is not nearer the hole, and
(ii) where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would
have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the
condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke.

 

[doublebogey7]

Those Rules are no longer applicable - superseded by 2020 ones - though the effect is pretty similar.

I know, and this is what I been trying to tell Traminator, and now accepted.