Playing the wrong ball.

duncan mackie

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Still don't understand. Why was he playing a second ball off a tee?
Don't worry about it!

He borrowed a ball from another player on the tee, and was able to substitute one of his own and return it without finishing the hole, despite it becoming his ball in play because he had a relief situation.

Under the previous rules he would have had to play it until the end of the hole (as you know).

The end. 🤗

(News to some, old news to some)
 

rulefan

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I'm assuming he had to play a provisional ball from the tee but didn't have one so borrowed a ball. As winter rule in place, when he reached the position of his provisional tee shot then rather than play it - if that was what he might have to do - he simply picked up the borrowed ball - gave it back - and placed down one of his own. What he then did in context of this discussion is I think irrelevant. He simply now has a ball of his own as the provisional to be played if necessary - if he had to play his provisional he wouldn't be playing with the borrowed ball.
Ok. Understand now. Really pretty straightforward.
 
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I like the possible variant that finds player B playing A's ball to the green (as per baseline scenario here) and A, C and D playing balls up but none anywhere near the green.

Player B goes to what he thinks is his ball on the green (it is after all the ball that he played and he didn't think any of the rest were on the green) but when he marks and looks at it he finds that it is not his ball - well not the one he played off the tee. Remember B didn't check the make of ball when misidentifying A's ball as his own back down the fairway.

And so B hunts around the green looking for his ball whilst A, C and D are busy looking elsewhere for theirs. And B's 3 mins runs out because of course he'll never find his 'original' ball as it is plugged way back down the fairway

Now has B found his 'in play' ball - even though he's failed to identify it as being so :)

Or does B suffer lost ball penalty as well as penalty for playing a ball from the wrong place. Even if subsequently chatting with A it all becomes clear that the ball on the green was B's 'in play' ball - and A's original ball - resulting from B's mistaken identification back down the fairway.
 
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Swango1980

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I like the possible variant that finds player B playing A's ball to the green (as per baseline scenario here) and A, C and D playing balls up but none anywhere near the green.

Player B goes to what he thinks is his ball on the green (it is after all the ball that he played and he didn't think any of the rest were on the green) but when he marks and looks at it he finds that it is not his ball - well not the one he played off the tee. Remember B didn't check the make of ball when misidentifying A's ball as his own back down the fairway.

And so B hunts around the green looking for his ball whilst A, C and D are busy looking elsewhere for theirs. And B's 3 mins runs out because of course he'll never find his 'original' ball as it is plugged way back down the fairway

Now has B found his 'in play' ball - even though he's failed to identify it as being so :)

Or does B suffer lost ball penalty as well as penalty for playing a ball from the wrong place. Even if subsequently chatting with A it all becomes clear that the ball on the green was B's 'in play' ball - and A's original ball - resulting from B's mistaken identification back down the fairway.
Or, B loses his ball as it is not his on the green, and he has no idea what happened to it. While A, to his surprise and great joy, finds his ball on the green (expecting to find it off the green) and says he must have had a lucky bounce :)
 

rulie

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I think we've been through player B's plight previously in this thread. When he picked up A's ball in the fairway and placed it according to the 'pick and place' Local Rule, he substituted A's ball for his ball in play, and it was at a wrong place. He then played it. Because he didn't know the location of his original ball when he made a stroke at the substituted ball, a Rule has to be assigned to his actions. The only Rule that can be applied to those actions is stroke and distance (Rule 18). Now, was it a serious breach of playing from a wrong place? Compare where he did play from (somewhere in the fairway) to where he should have played from under stroke and distance (the teeing area). Did he gain a significant advantage by playing from the wrong place? If the distance from the teeing area to where he played from in the fairway is significant (more than 30 yards or so), the answer is yes, and he must correct that by going back to the teeing area (the correct place for stroke and distance) and playing from there. He would be playing his 5th stroke from the tee. Hopefully, he's playing Stableford and can just blob the hole!
 
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If (in my revised scenario) A does not identify the ball on the green as his ball he lost back down the fairway - and B does not identify it as his ball in play; then even although B can be standing looking at a ball that is actually his 'ball in play' - if he doesn't know that, will it be lost ball for Player B when 3mins is up?

Maybe generally is easier. Do I have to positively identify my ball in play as being mine within 3minutes otherwise it is lost (answer to this is Yes) - even if I have found my 'ball in play' - but fail to identify it as such (that's what I am not sure of).
 

Swango1980

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If (in my revised scenario) A does not identify the ball on the green as his ball he lost back down the fairway - and B does not identify it as his ball in play; then even although B can be standing looking at a ball that is actually his 'ball in play' - if he doesn't know that, will it be lost ball for Player B when 3mins is up?

Maybe generally is easier. Do I have to positively identify my ball in play as being mine within 3minutes otherwise it is lost (answer to this is Yes) - even if I have found my 'ball in play' - but fail to identify it as such (that's what I am not sure of).
Not sure I get you? Who would deem the ball lost IF the player believes the ball is is, even if they were incorrect in this belief? Surely, unless you become aware you played the wrong ball, things would just proceed as normal until that knowledge becomes available.
 
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Other way round. A player finds his ‘in play’ ball but fails for some weird reason (such as OP scenario) to identify it as his. If after 3minutes a playing partner tells him the ball IS his - is it nonetheless deemed ‘lost‘ as the player did not positively identify it as his until after 3mins had elapsed.
 

Swango1980

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Other way round. A player finds his ‘in play’ ball but fails for some weird reason (such as OP scenario) to identify it as his. If after 3minutes a playing partner tells him the ball IS his - is it nonetheless deemed ‘lost‘ as the player did not positively identify it as his until after 3mins had elapsed.
So, if you hit a putt short of the hole, marked it and then putted out when it was your turn again, would you say the ball is "lost" if the player actually never visibly checked for his identification mark on the ball before he marked it, even though it is completely obvious it was his ball?
 
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So, if you hit a putt short of the hole, marked it and then putted out when it was your turn again, would you say the ball is "lost" if the player actually never visibly checked for his identification mark on the ball before he marked it, even though it is completely obvious it was his ball?
Clearly not as he was able to positively identify his ball to the full satisfaction of himself and the others he was playing with.

But like the OP scenario.

Our Player plays Make X off the tee. He goes to a ball on the fairway that he thinks is his - but isn't - it's a playing companions tee shot ball thought lost in the trees. He picks and places the ball but he doesn't spot that it's not his Make X original ball - it's a Make Y but he doesn't spot that, and (as I have come to know) it is now his 'ball in play'. Our Player plays it to the green - and is seen to do so.

When Our Player gets to the green (let's say his is the only ball on the green) - he marks and picks the ball on the green and he discovers it's a Make Y - and of course he doesn't recognise it as his own ball. He looks around and of course cannot find his Make X ball. 3minutes pass and he's stumped as his companions arrive at the green and he explains. A companion looks at the ball and tells our player that the ball is the Make Y that he himself 'lost' back down the fairway - but as Our Player picked and placed it's Our Players ball in play - grrrr.

But has Our Player 'lost' his ball because he failed to identify it as his 'ball in play' within 3 minutes - even although he had indeed unknowingly found it.

Yes - convoluted I know but I like such rules puzzles :)
 
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rulefan

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Clearly not as he was able to positively identify his ball to the full satisfaction of himself and the others he was playing with.

But like the OP scenario.

Our Player plays Make X off the tee. He goes to a ball on the fairway that he thinks is his - but isn't - it's a playing companions tee shot ball thought lost in the trees. He picks and places the ball but he doesn't spot that it's not his Make X original ball - it's a Make Y but he doesn't spot that, and (as I have come to know) it is now his 'ball in play'. Our Player plays it to the green - and is seen to do so.

When Our Player gets to the green (let's say his is the only ball on the green) - he marks and picks the ball on the green and he discovers it's a Make Y - and of course he doesn't recognise it as his own ball. He looks around and of course cannot find his Make X ball. 3minutes pass and he's stumped as his companions arrive at the green and he explains. A companion looks at the ball and tells our player that the ball is the Make Y that he himself 'lost' back down the fairway - but as Our Player picked and placed it's Our Players ball in play - grrrr.

But has Our Player 'lost' his ball because he failed to identify it as his 'ball in play' within 3 minutes - even although he had indeed unknowingly found it.

Yes - convoluted I know but I like such rules puzzles :)
Although the definition of Lost has changed, he effectively 'lost' it when he substituted ball Y originally.
See the definition of Substitute
 
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Although the definition of Lost has changed, he effectively 'lost' it when he substituted ball Y originally.
See the definition of Substitute
But we have had the long conversation here that explains how - when a pick and place LR is in place - a player can pick up his ball and place down a different one - all totally legit.

In my scenario the ball picked up was not the player's (it was a companion's), but when he placed it back down it was effectively as if he was placing a different ball to play - all legit. He had picked up a companions ball - did not identify it as such - placed it - at which point it was his ball in play - and played it to the green. And when he got to the green he was baffled as the ball that he thought was his on the green wasn't what he expected it to be. But it WAS by the rules his ball in play. He just didn't know that. And so after 3minutes having not resolved the situation was that ball 'lost'.
 

Barrie J

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But we have had the long conversation here that explains how - when a pick and place LR is in place - a player can pick up his ball and place down a different one - all totally legit.

In my scenario the ball picked up was not the player's (it was a companion's), but when he placed it back down it was effectively as if he was placing a different ball to play - all legit. He had picked up a companions ball - did not identify it as such - placed it - at which point it was his ball in play - and played it to the green. And when he got to the green he was baffled as the ball that he thought was his on the green wasn't what he expected it to be. But it WAS by the rules his ball in play. He just didn't know that. And so after 3minutes having not resolved the situation was that ball 'lost'.
Not sure what you mean by "that ball". However, the three minute time limit applies to time spent actually searching.
 

rulie

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But we have had the long conversation here that explains how - when a pick and place LR is in place - a player can pick up his ball and place down a different one - all totally legit.

In my scenario the ball picked up was not the player's (it was a companion's), but when he placed it back down it was effectively as if he was placing a different ball to play - all legit. He had picked up a companions ball - did not identify it as such - placed it - at which point it was his ball in play - and played it to the green. And when he got to the green he was baffled as the ball that he thought was his on the green wasn't what he expected it to be. But it WAS by the rules his ball in play. He just didn't know that. And so after 3minutes having not resolved the situation was that ball 'lost'.
Here's my take on this specific situation (don't use it for other situations): this player has substituted a ball (permitted) and played from a wrong place, very likely with a serious breach of playing from a wrong place. Rule 14.7b instructs us that the player must correct the mistake if there was a serious breach. I would suggest that correcting the mistake (wrong place) means returning to the tee and playing from there. The original ball was abandoned when the substitution was made and cannot become relevant again even if found.
 

rulefan

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But we have had the long conversation here that explains how - when a pick and place LR is in place - a player can pick up his ball and place down a different one - all totally legit.

In my scenario the ball picked up was not the player's (it was a companion's), but when he placed it back down it was effectively as if he was placing a different ball to play - all legit. He had picked up a companions ball - did not identify it as such - placed it - at which point it was his ball in play - and played it to the green. And when he got to the green he was baffled as the ball that he thought was his on the green wasn't what he expected it to be. But it WAS by the rules his ball in play. He just didn't know that. And so after 3minutes having not resolved the situation was that ball 'lost'.
I was indicating that the substituted ball was now the ball in play and the original ball was now out of play, in effect 'lost' (although not lost as per definition).
 
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This is an old thread but just to check on a related scenario yesterday - a common one I am sure and one I know has been discussed but I can’t find the thread - so apologies for the repeat question.

I play my shot wide and it is likely going to be in the rough separating hole I’m playing and another hole. I go looking for my ball. I find a ball but it isn’t mine - though it’s same make. I ask group on the adjacent fairway if anyone is playing such a ball and one of them says that yes he is and comes to check. Turns out he is sure the ball I have found is his and similarly sure he has played my ball - which is now 175yds away. I’m not bothered about what penalty he takes - he can sort that out. I can ask him to go get my ball, or can I agree that I take his, and then I put what is now ‘my‘ ball back to where he tells me mine was - dropping in the rough or placing if on the fairway?
 
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This is an old thread but just to check on a related scenario yesterday - a common one I am sure and one I know has been discussed but I can’t find the thread - so apologies for the repeat question.

I play my shot wide and it is likely going to be in the rough separating hole I’m playing and another hole. I go looking for my ball. I find a ball but it isn’t mine - though it’s same make. I ask group on the adjacent fairway if anyone is playing such a ball and one of them says that yes he is and comes to check. Turns out he is sure the ball I have found is his and similarly sure he has played my ball - which is now 175yds away. I’m not bothered about what penalty he takes - he can sort that out. I can ask him to go get my ball, or can I agree that I take his, and then I put what is now ‘my‘ ball back to where he tells me mine was - dropping in the rough or placing if on the fairway?
Rule 9.6. The ball (or another ball) must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated).
 
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