Playing the wrong ball.

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I’m really confused by this whole ‘substituting ball in the wrong place’ and further - that being tied to mark pick and place. But I’ll go back and see if I can understand.
 
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I’m really confused by this whole ‘substituting ball in the wrong place’ and further - that being tied to mark pick and place. But I’ll go back and see if I can understand.
Best place to start is to stop thinking of it in terms of "pick & place" - as the "pick" element is no longer a requirement.

Old rules, you walked to your ball, lifted it, cleaned it if you wanted, and put it back within the required distance. So, in effect, you had to be at your ball & know it was yours before you did anything. Nowadays, there is no requirement to lift your ball. Nowadays, the local rule just says you may take relief by placing a ball - any ball - within the relief area. No "picking" required. You can make the substitution without even touching your own ball. So theres sort of scope to do it without reference to the original ball. So the question is, can you make the substitution under this rule (albeit in a wrong place) if you haven't actually identified your ball. A wrong place a couple of feet "wrong", is likely just a wrong place. But 15-20-100 yards away ???
 
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Best place to start is to stop thinking of it in terms of "pick & place" - as the "pick" element is no longer a requirement.

Old rules, you walked to your ball, lifted it, cleaned it if you wanted, and put it back within the required distance. So, in effect, you had to be at your ball & know it was yours before you did anything. Nowadays, there is no requirement to lift your ball. Nowadays, the local rule just says you may take relief by placing a ball - any ball - within the relief area. No "picking" required. You can make the substitution without even touching your own ball. So theres sort of scope to do it without reference to the original ball. So the question is, can you make the substitution under this rule (albeit in a wrong place) if you haven't actually identified your ball. A wrong place a couple of feet "wrong", is likely just a wrong place. But 15-20-100 yards away ???
OK - I didn't know this change to the rules. As I read it I can therefore take one ball of the tee and the put in play a different ball for my second shot. I assume that unless the ball is damaged I can only do this if the new version of the old pick-clean-and-place ruling is in place.

Really? With Winter rules in place I can change my ball prior to playing my second shot - no constraints?
 

Swango1980

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Best place to start is to stop thinking of it in terms of "pick & place" - as the "pick" element is no longer a requirement.

Old rules, you walked to your ball, lifted it, cleaned it if you wanted, and put it back within the required distance. So, in effect, you had to be at your ball & know it was yours before you did anything. Nowadays, there is no requirement to lift your ball. Nowadays, the local rule just says you may take relief by placing a ball - any ball - within the relief area. No "picking" required. You can make the substitution without even touching your own ball. So theres sort of scope to do it without reference to the original ball. So the question is, can you make the substitution under this rule (albeit in a wrong place) if you haven't actually identified your ball. A wrong place a couple of feet "wrong", is likely just a wrong place. But 15-20-100 yards away ???
Interesting. I've not even thought about that aspect of the rules. So, during the winter when preferred lies are in play, as SwingsitlikeHogan asked, you can use one ball for driving, but then change it to a different ball for approach shots or chips / pitches if you wish (so long as you are on grass cut to fairway height or less).
 

jim8flog

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OK - I didn't know this change to the rules. As I read it I can therefore take one ball of the tee and the put in play a different ball for my second shot. I assume that unless the ball is damaged I can only do this if the new version of the old pick-clean-and-place ruling is in place.

Really? With Winter rules in place I can change my ball prior to playing my second shot - no constraints?
Interesting. I've not even thought about that aspect of the rules. So, during the winter when preferred lies are in play, as SwingsitlikeHogan asked, you can use one ball for driving, but then change it to a different ball for approach shots or chips / pitches if you wish (so long as you are on grass cut to fairway height or less).
Rule 6.3
b. Substitution of Another Ball While Playing Hole
(1) When Player Is Allowed and Not Allowed to Substitute Another Ball. Certain Rules allow a player to change the ball he or she is using to play a hole by substituting another ball as the ball in play, and others do not:
• When taking relief under a Rule, including when either dropping a ball or placing a ball (such as when a ball will not stay in the relief area or when taking relief on the putting green), the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.3a),
• When playing again from where a previous stroke was made, the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.6), and
• When replacing a ball on a spot, the player is not allowed to substitute a ball and must use the original ball, with certain exceptions (Rule 14.2a).
 

Swango1980

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Rule 6.3
b. Substitution of Another Ball While Playing Hole
(1) When Player Is Allowed and Not Allowed to Substitute Another Ball. Certain Rules allow a player to change the ball he or she is using to play a hole by substituting another ball as the ball in play, and others do not:
• When taking relief under a Rule, including when either dropping a ball or placing a ball (such as when a ball will not stay in the relief area or when taking relief on the putting green), the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.3a),
• When playing again from where a previous stroke was made, the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.6), and
• When replacing a ball on a spot, the player is not allowed to substitute a ball and must use the original ball, with certain exceptions (Rule 14.2a).
jim4flog, but this is the model Local Rule (E-3) in the Rules of Golf for preferred lies:

"When a player's ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less [or identify a specific area such as 'on the fairway of the 6th hole'], the player may take free relief once by placing the original ball or another ball in and playing it from this relief area:
 
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OK - I didn't know this change to the rules. As I read it I can therefore take one ball of the tee and the put in play a different ball for my second shot. I assume that unless the ball is damaged I can only do this if the new version of the old pick-clean-and-place ruling is in place.

Really? With Winter rules in place I can change my ball prior to playing my second shot - no constraints?
We've had threads on this before. But yes, you can change your ball. I'm committing the cardinal sin of summarising the rules but in short, if the ball is lifted and has to be put back on the exact spot, then has to be the original ball. If it is to be dropped or placed, then it can be any ball. So if winter rules are in play you can readily use a distance ball for the drive and swap to a "spinny" ball for the approach shot (provided you are abiding by the normal constraints of winter rules that is)
 
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We've had threads on this before. But yes, you can change your ball. I'm committing the cardinal sin of summarising the rules but in short, if the ball is lifted and has to be put back on the exact spot, then has to be the original ball. If it is to be dropped or placed, then it can be any ball. So if winter rules are in play you can readily use a distance ball for the drive and swap to a "spinny" ball for the approach shot (provided you are abiding by the normal constraints of winter rules that is)
Well I never...that seems a pretty fundamental change that I completely missed.

However from what I now understand, I still cannot change my ball (in normal circumstances) when I am on the green - as marking and picking my ball requires me to replace my ball on the exact spot I picked it from - and the fact that it has to replaced on the exact spot is what prevents me from putting a different ball into play. This prevents me using a specific type of ball playing onto the green then changing it for a different ball for putting.

But as noted - I can now use one type of ball off the tee, and if on the fairway, and if and only if an appropriate LR is in place, I can pick my ball up and replace it with a different type. Now there is a thing!

Separately when taking S&D I can put a different sort of ball into play at any time - no constraints - similar but not such an impacting change - as often when taking S&D we are doing so due to a lost ball.
 

jim8flog

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jim4flog, but this is the model Local Rule (E-3) in the Rules of Golf for preferred lies:

"When a player's ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less [or identify a specific area such as 'on the fairway of the 6th hole'], the player may take free relief once by placing the original ball or another ball in and playing it from this relief area:
Playing another ball is exactly what it says in the rule I quoted

6.3b(1) • When taking relief under a Rule, including when either dropping a ball or placing a ball (such as when a ball will not stay in the relief area or when taking relief on the putting green), the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.3a),

Are you just misreading what it says in that rule
 
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The key word(s) is/are not 'exact spot' but 'replace' (as opposed to place or drop).
OK - as in 'replace' means, in the context of the golf ball, putting the ball back from whence it came. With Winter Rules in place I can pick and place...hence my being allowed to place a different ball from that I picked up.

Got it. I think... :)
 

Swango1980

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Playing another ball is exactly what it says in the rule I quoted

6.3b(1) • When taking relief under a Rule, including when either dropping a ball or placing a ball (such as when a ball will not stay in the relief area or when taking relief on the putting green), the player may use either the original ball or another ball (Rule 14.3a),

Are you just misreading what it says in that rule
Sorry Jim, I think I was just misreading what you said, guilty of skim reading. I thought you were suggesting that you could NOT use another ball originally.
 

Swango1980

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OK - as in 'replace' means, in the context of the golf ball, putting the ball back from whence it came. With Winter Rules in place I can pick and place...hence my being allowed to place a different ball from that I picked up.

Got it. I think... :)
Yeah. There seem to be 3 options of putting your ball back in play when it is taken out of play during a hole. Dropping, replacing (on the exact spot) or placing. There are definitions for dropping and replacing, but I don't believe there is one for placing. It uses the word placing when giving an example, such as your ball won't come to rest, but never seems to actually define this. Therefore, the only direct rule tying this down to pick and place was the wording in the Local Rule itself. I can see how the same conclusion can be found by going through rules 6 and 14, although the confusion can come, I guess, when it specifically says you MUST use the original ball when REPLACING the ball. I can see how golfers may think this applies to preferred lies, as they are not dropping the ball back in play.
 

Swango1980

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If it doesn't say you must then you may or may not as you will.

But nor are they REPLACING
I know. This was my point. I think most golfers will not realise there is a difference between replacing (which is defined) and placing (which isnt). I've run a poll so far on my club facebook page, setting out this scenario, and asking what the procedure is. So far, only one has correctly said no penalty. 18 others have picked the various penalty options I gave. I notice some of them have looked at the rule book to check, and determined it is a penalty. Looking forward to revealing the answer :)
 

jim8flog

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I had a situation to put this in to practice last week.

One of the players needed a second ball to play on a tee with his bag 80 yards away (we have a lot of 'trolleys prohibited' areas due to the rain), so I gave him my spare from my my pocket. When we got to where he had hit it on the fairway I pointed out the rule to him so I got my ball back straight away.
 

rulefan

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I had a situation to put this in to practice last week.

One of the players needed a second ball to play on a tee with his bag 80 yards away (we have a lot of 'trolleys prohibited' areas due to the rain), so I gave him my spare from my my pocket. When we got to where he had hit it on the fairway I pointed out the rule to him so I got my ball back straight away.
I'm not sure why he gave his ball back. What had he done wrong? Why was he playing off a tee? Was his firts ball played from the teeing area?
 

jim8flog

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I'm not sure why he gave his ball back. What had he done wrong?
He gave me my ball back not his. As we had lift and place he could put down a ball of his own (preferred make) rather than the one I gave him and I got back a brand new ball which had only been used to a driver shot with.
 
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Still don't understand. Why was he playing a second ball off a tee?
I'm assuming he had to play a provisional ball from the tee but didn't have one so borrowed a ball. As winter rule in place, when he reached the position of his provisional tee shot then rather than play it - if that was what he might have to do - he simply picked up the borrowed ball - gave it back - and placed down one of his own. What he then did in context of this discussion is I think irrelevant. He simply now has a ball of his own as the provisional to be played if necessary - if he had to play his provisional he wouldn't be playing with the borrowed ball.
 
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