Patrick Reed

[Jacko_G]

Where did I say it was.

That my friend is your problem right there. He has given the authorities his view on it, they have accepted it. Reed believed that he was far enough back from the ball for it not to be an issue. The authorities have accepted this, hit him with a two shot penalty - they have decided not to accept it was a deliberate attempt to cheat.

You don't have to accept it or like it but that is what the ruling bodies have decided.

 

[Swango1980]

Not just me....

Under Rules 12.2a and 12.2b, the player is allowed to touch or move loose impediments in a bunker and is generally allowed to touch the sand with a hand or club; but a limited prohibition continues so that the player must not:

• Deliberately touch the sand in a bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the stroke, or
• Touch the sand in a bunker with a club in making a practice swing, in grounding the club right in front of or behind the ball, or in making the backswing for a stroke.

So, in the second bullet point, you agree that you can't ground your club behind the ball before your shot?

 

[Slab]

So, in the second bullet point, you agree that you can't ground your club behind the ball before your shot?

Sure but that's not what I wrote... And I think you realise that now

 

[clubchamp98]

That my friend is your problem right there. He has given the authorities his view on it, they have accepted it. Reed believed that he was far enough back from the ball for it not to be an issue. The authorities have accepted this, hit him with a two shot penalty - they have decided not to accept it was a deliberate attempt to cheat.

You don't have to accept it or like it but that is what the ruling bodies have decided.

You are correct.
I don’t like it.
The ruling bodies bottled it and that’s what the crowds don’t like .
Because like me they think it was deliberate.
Just mine and their opinion.

But you never answered my question “ where did I say you can’t ground your club in a waste area”?

 

[Swango1980]

Sure but that's not what I wrote... And I think you realise that now

This is what you said:

"Grounding the club in a bunker and therfore moving sand, is not against the rules"

Now, you can try and slime your way out of it by then throwing caveats afterwards. However, if you were to make a statement like this to a golfer who was relying on your advice (i.e. they were none the wiser), I can guarantee they'd take your comment as meaning that they could ground their club behind the ball before they play their shot. So, either you were unaware of the rule yourself when you made this statement and are now trying to back out of it now you've read it, or you're trying to wind people up?

 

[Slab]

This is what you said:

"Grounding the club in a bunker and therfore moving sand, is not against the rules"

Now, you can try and slime your way out of it by then throwing caveats afterwards. However, if you were to make a statement like this to a golfer who was relying on your advice (i.e. they were none the wiser), I can guarantee they'd take your comment as meaning that they could ground their club behind the ball before they play their shot. So, either you were unaware of the rule yourself when you made this statement and are now trying to back out of it now you've read it, or you're trying to wind people up?

Or... I knew the rule (including the prohibition) and thought others did too so I don't really need to list it in its entirity

Edit, in fact if you care to go back my posts to last feb/Mar I'm sure I posted that I actually did ground my club in a bunker not in breach of the new rule

 

[clubchamp98]

Sure but that's not what I wrote... And I think you realise that now

You can move loose impediments or lean on your club for balance.
But “grounding your club “ means a very different thing to me!

 

[Jacko_G]

You are correct.
I don’t like it.
The ruling bodies bottled it and that’s what the crowds don’t like .
Because like me they think it was deliberate.
Just mine and their opinion.

But you never answered my question “ where did I say you can’t ground your club in a waste area”?

Well stop referring to bunkers.

 

[clubchamp98]

Well stop referring to bunkers.

So you can’t show me just say so.

 

[Slab]

You can move loose impediments or lean on your club for balance.
But “grounding your club “ means a very different thing to me!

What it means to you is not my responsibility, I go by what is written in the rule

 

[Swango1980]

Or... I knew the rule (including the prohibition) and thought others did too so I don't really need to list it in its entirity

Edit, in fact if you care to go back my posts to last feb/Mar I'm sure I posted that I actually did ground my club in a bunker not in breach of the new rule

I don't trawl back to look at each and every post made by a poster when questioning something they've said. Bit unrealistic that. I don't even know why you are talking about bunkers in reference to the Patric Reed incident anyway, I don't think anyone just prior to that had specifically said he was playing out of a bunker?

 

[Swango1980]

What it means to you is not my responsibility, I go by what is written in the rule

Where does it use the words in the Rule that you can "ground" your club. And I mean using those specific words, not your own interpretation of how you wish to word them. After all, you go by what is written in the rule.

 

[Slab]

I don't trawl back to look at each and every post made by a poster when questioning something they've said. Bit unrealistic that. I don't even know why you are talking about bunkers in reference to the Patric Reed incident anyway, I don't think anyone just prior to that had specifically said he was playing out of a bunker?

Hey its you who thinks I was trying to slime out of something
And clubchamp98 mentioned him spending hours playing out of bunkers and waste areas in post 292

Not sure what more you need

 

[Slab]

Where does it use the words in the Rule that you can "ground" your club. And I mean using those specific words, not your own interpretation of how you wish to word them. After all, you go by what is written in the rule.

Maybe I am mistaken
What do you call it when your club touches the ground

 

[clubchamp98]

What it means to you is not my responsibility, I go by what is written in the rule

Is grounding your club in the rule?
Apart from not doing it before your stroke.

 

[Swango1980]

Hey its you who thinks I was trying to slime out of something
And clubchamp98 mentioned him spending hours playing out of bunkers and waste areas in post 292

Not sure what more you need

Clubchamp did, but only in context to whether he did or didn't realise he'd touched the sand. Nothing to do about the rules in bunkers versus waste areas, so your response was not relevant.

 

[clubchamp98]

Hey its you who thinks I was trying to slime out of something
And clubchamp98 mentioned him spending hours playing out of bunkers and waste areas in post 292

Not sure what more you need

I did mention it but only to highlight that he is very good out of them both .
Being a elite golfer he knows the difference

 

[Swinglowandslow]

You can move loose impediments or lean on your club for balance.
But “grounding your club “ means a very different thing to me!

What it means to you is of no concern. What is important is the rule as stated.
See post 302.
If you read it as written it does not state the rule exactly as you say it means to you.
,
The question is -
whether Reed was testing the condition of the sands to learn information for the stroke, (first bullet), OR
whether he touched the sand with his club right behind or in front....etc.( second bullet)
The common camera view suggests he was right behind...
But Reed suggests differently, and it has been suggested in these posts that there is another camera view( somewhere) backing up that suggestion.
T'would be enlightening to see that alternate view, if it exists.
As for the first bullet definition, "testing the condition.....etc",: that is not relevant in that his shot was going to be a "hit ball first as if on the fairway", as opposed to a green side bunker type shot where the sand is deliberatedly hit first..
Conclusion..? If he wasn't right behind the ball then he wasn't cheating, indeed he could be said to be within the rule.
I can well see that if he had a lawyer arguing his case, he may not have even had a penalty ( if that alternate camera view existed?)

 

[clubchamp98]

What it means to you is of no concern. What is important is the rule as stated.
See post 302.
If you read it as written it does not state the rule exactly as you say it means to you.
,
The question is -
whether Reed was testing the condition of the sands to learn information for the stroke, (first bullet), OR
whether he touched the sand with his club right behind or in front....etc.( second bullet)
The common camera view suggests he was right behind...
But Reed suggests differently, and it has been suggested in these posts that there is another camera view( somewhere) backing up that suggestion.
T'would be enlightening to see that alternate view, if it exists.
As for the first bullet definition, "testing the condition.....etc",: that is not relevant in that his shot was going to be a "hit ball first as if on the fairway", as opposed to a green side bunker type shot where the sand is deliberatedly hit first..
Conclusion..? If he wasn't right behind the ball then he wasn't cheating, indeed he could be said to be within the rule.
I can well see that if he had a lawyer arguing his case, he may not have even had a penalty ( if that alternate camera view existed?)

Post 302 is about a bunker not a waste area.!
He had no chance of ball first in the lie he had and he knew it!
That’s why the cameras moved in on it to show how bad the lie was.
That’s when the commentators questioned his actions.
That’s why he removed the sand TWICE behind the ball with a practice takeaway.
Wonder why he didn’t contest the penalty.
Maybe because he knew he got off lightly!

 

[clubchamp98]

What it means to you is not my responsibility, I go by what is written in the rule

It quite clearly says you can’t ground your club in front or behind the ball.
Do you consider flicking a loose impediment with your club grounding it?