** Pace of play ** Forumers' opinions wanted!

[rgs]

Problems caused by players--
1 Not ready to play when its their turn-if your last to play in a four ball you should have made your mind up on club selection.
2 Not playing a provisional when the original ball may be lost.
3 General faffing about-walking slowly, excessive practise swings etc.

Coure problems
1 over long rough and very narrow fairways.
2 long distances between greens and tees-poor signage to next tee.
3 too many groups sent out per hour to boost revenue.

 

[Herbie]

jezze, do you want us to do the job for ya? lol

 

[Ken_A]

Players prblems - (why only 3 there are hundreds)

1 Players not carrying and using a provisinal ball - all payers should carry and hit 2 balls when they think the first may be hard to find- if you spray them get a fellow player to lift it for you.

2 The new rules are great, any playing group should be let through, pity not many of the players know this - makes slow golf when there is only 2 of you.

3 I only use the 'honour' when in match play - the rest of the time I will play on or ask others to do so if I can continue without affecting their shot.


Cat 2

1 Close tee times

2 To many blind shots - bells in bad placements, not hearing then etc (course design)

3 Long rough - why not grade it?

As for times -

2 ball- 3 hrs.
3 ball - 3.5 hrs.
4 ball - 4 hrs.

I played a fantastic course in the summer - It was an open with 7 minuite 4 ball slots - ours was at 5.15pm. Lots of water, a few blind shots, long penal rough - open day so lots of folks who have never played the course before - round finished well after 10pm more than 5 1/2 hours - I was super frustrated thankfully the weather and course was great.

 

[IM01]

Cat. 1
No preparation until it's your turn to play.
Over-long pre-shot routine..because you've seen it on TV
Not calling anyone through.

Cat. 2
Hard courses...too much heavy rough,too much water in play.
Once a year golfers with no game or knowledge.
Distance from green to next tee.

2Ball 3hrs
3Ball 3.5hrs
4Ball 4hrs

 

[theeaglehunter]

Players Problems:

1) Not playing provisional balls 'because they found one there last week'
2) Too many professionalisms, not just over long pre shot routines, but pacing out yardages needlessly, walking to the green to view contours when you are 150+ yards away and taking 5 practice swings outside a bunker and then 5 inside the bunker.
3) General poor play. The more balls you loose the slower your round will be due to searching so if playing standards were better play would be faster. This is controversial though as I do not think that high handicappers should be banned from the course or anything, I suppose it is something people just have to accept. Everyone was at that stage at some point.

Course issues:

1) having to cross a fairly busy road between front nine and back nine. I'm not sure how common this is but I know of at least 1 course where this happens.
2)Controversial as I actually like having them but 'preferred lies', whilst it would be arguably more difficult without them some people spend far too long marking their ball, picking it up, cleaning it etc making them a cause of slow play when applicable.
3)Clubs allowing people on the course without seeing a handicap certificate or some sort of play on the range. There is a rule there but it never seems to be used. I for one have never been asked for a handicap certificate wherever I've played, and this has got to be a reason why slow often 'non golfers' end up holding up play on courses. I never went onto an 18 hole course until I was of a reasonable standard, so why do some people who have never played turn up and get 18 holes on a decent course taking 150+ shots. Fortunately my club is very good about this and doesn't attract novices like above.

2 ball: 3 1/2 hours
3 ball: 4 hours
4 ball: 4 1/2 hours

 

[viscount17]

I've already listed my three but have to add this.

Society playing standards - a lot of courses will allow society handicaps (though they often never check the handicap of anyone using the course) as a result I see many where there are players who have quite obviously never seen a course let alone hit a club. Societies will be slower, you dump 20 - 30 guys on a strange course and it's inevitable, but its aggravated by bringing a bunch of one-day golfers. (I do also play with a society but they are quite strict about pace of play and having some ability to play - six (balls!) off the 1st tee is frowned upon)

 

[krokodil]

1. Duff players using electric trolleys, nightmare. Glove-take it off before the green and back on before you reach the next tee.
Scenario-3 ball and 2 hit on rough opposite side of fairway, all 3 look for one then go look for the other.
Provisional-always always hit one if there is the slightest doubt about the destination of the ball.

2.Seniors playing at the weekend-no point. Duff players, and duff players who don't know the etiquette when playing slow.
Severe rough (play that provisional)
Having to repair 10 pitchmarks on the green 'cause some lazy f****** couldn't be bothered.
Players in front walking quickly-it's not a leisurely walk we're doing folks.
Par 3s-if play is snagging, let the group behind play up before you putt, alleviate some of the build up.
Winter-no trolleys at all, if you aren't able to carry a bag then you shouldn't be playing.

 

[USER1999]

Krokodil, what is the issue with trolleys? Why do they make for slow play?

My last course used to ban trolleys in the winter, and some old dear would continue playing, by dragging her bag behind her by the strap. Wouldn't a trolley be a/ faster and b/ less damaging for the course. She has paid her subs, she will play.

 

[medwayjon]

"If you arent able to carry a bag then you shouldn't be playing"

What a load of utter self-righteous bo!!ock$.

Not like me to get p-o'd easily but that is utter crap and to be honest that attitude is downright F***ing disgusting in my eyes.

So basically anyone with a physical impediment doesnt have the right to play golf then?

I have a bad back and have had a displaced pelvis that had to be corrected and very rarely carry as it is painful, so thats me not allowed to play then. I also know golfers with ankles/knees that are shot so thats out. Oh and the guy at my club who is terribly weakened by cancer "sorry, you arent allowed to play either"

"seniors paying at the weekend - No point"

They pay their fees the same as everybody else and despite what you may think, not everybody over the age of 65 is retired.

So what if they are a little slower in certain cases?

Anyway, I know a lot of 60+ golfers who put the younger generation to shame when it comes to speed of play.

FFS you seemingly have one hell of an attitude problem. You seriously need to pull your head out of your arse and respect the rights and needs of other people a bit more.

Apologies to other forumers for this strong stance but it has touched a nerve.

 

[Parmo]

Jon,
I think he meant trolleys can wreck courses in winter, hence why a lot of clubs ban them. We had this debate last winter and it turned out some seniors where just paying and I must add wasting doctors time by getting a sick note or.. the worst of off offences.. dragging a pencil bag around the course doing God knows what damage.

Well that was my view after reading krokodil post, imho you use whatever makes the game easier for you in terms of reducing scores and your goals within R&A rules.

I play first thing in the morning on a weekend as usually a one ball, so slow play really isnt an issue, well unless my second 9 clashes with some comp of loads of 4 balls, but I don't mind the wait within reason.

 

[USER1999]

Do trolleys damage the golf course? Is this not an issue of course design, to minimise wear in crucial areas, and to direct traffic to the next tee efficiently (without a half mile walk). Now that a lot of players use electric trolleys, may be this aspect of course design needs to be reviewed, rather than just a blanket ban, which is unfair. May be we need better paths.

I do notice that over the last 10 years, trolley wheels ahve got narrower again. The first electric trolleys had carlos fandango wheels. Why have they got smaller again? I guess it is this fold up small issue.

This has gone a bit off topic, with regards to slow play. (unless you count marshalling trolleys on a half mile journey to get 50 yards to the next tee).

So Krokodil, can you explain what your reasoning is for 'duff players using electric trolleys' being slow? because I don't get the connection between duff players, trolleys and slowness.

 

[Wildrover]

To get back on thread again.

Cat 1 Players.
1. Too many practice swings.
2. Not playing provisional balls (I'm too good to lose one)
3. Too long getting yardages / reading putts etc.

Cat 2 Players
1. Taking their latest practice set up & grip routine to the course instead of the range.
2. Thinking they can hit it further than they can and waiting too long.
3. Poor course management, constantly trying to pull off miracle shots that they hit 1 in 100 times and finding trouble.

Course Problems
1. Rough too long/thick and not graded.
2. Too many societies comprising golfers who play about 2 or 3 times a year. (Saw one bloke take 13 on a par3-and they were playing Stableford, AAAGGGHHH!!!!)
3. Bad course design like having par3's and driveable par4's together and holes where you have to have walk back down the hole to get to the next tee.

 

[EchtLoon]

To get back on thread again.

Cat 1 Players.
1. Too many practice swings.

I would blame the duffers for that particular fault, especially the king of slow play at my course, in fact both my courses the worst culprit is around the 22 h'cap mark.

Anyway...

* Practice swings, if you must , then take one, ONE!
* Not playing provisionals
* All players having to look for a ball, particularly the clown who goes up to his ball, then heads for the other side of the fairway to help look but doesn't play his own ball first, then has to traipse back to play
* Marking scorecard on the green
* Leaving bag/trolley on wrong side of green
* Marking card when it's your honour/turn to tee off
* Not being ready to play in turn
* Religious adherence to strict order of play when unecessary
* Waiting to play when you couldn't hit the group in front with a bazooka
* Not waving quicker groups through
* Countinuing to play as if for the Open when you're 27 shots over your handicap


Courses:

* Excessive rough
* Wooded areas not cleared of jungle below branches
* Bad design that causes long walks green to tee
* Too many blind holes that cause uncertainty and players
subsequently wait longer than they need to
* Putting up slow play warnings then doing sod all to enforce it
* Prefered lies - just play the bloody ball down, same for everyone, if it's that bad should the course evben be open?

 

[Marko77]

1) Those directly attributable to the player (eg not ready when it's your turn, leaving trolleys in wrong place etc)

> Dithering on greens, taking ages to line up putts or marking cards whilst leaving the green or most infuriating dropping the ball again and practicing that missed putt!

> not inviting quicker groups to play through or not inviting groups to play through when looking for balls. once can be forgiven, but once per hole...

> believing they are better than they are i.e. waiting for a green 250yds away to clear before duffing a 3 wood 20yds. Yes, Mr Safety says wait, Mr Sensible says shout "fore" on that 1 in 1,000 chance you crack one away.


2) Those over which the player has little control (eg long walks from greens to tees etc)

> Course setups i.e. rough designed for Open championships. Not run of the mill members comps. There is no need for it on most courses and can cause players to be continually looking for balls (although see above...)

> Non golf focused parties. Clubs allowing groups of guys out for their annual golf game who clearly can't play the game but seem intent on chewing the course up. They don't know there's guys or gals behind them trying to enjoy their game in a reasonable time

> Weather - this year has been bad, up with brolly, down with brolly, on with waterproof top, off with it, "is this casual water" debates, high winds, plugged balls all contributing to slower rounds in my opinion.

I tried to write this without looking at other responses first, will be interesting to see what others have said in comparison.

 

[Marko77]

forgot timings

2ball - 3hrs
3ball - 3.5hrs
4ball - 4/4.25hrs

 

[Leftie]

Couple of Cat 1 problems that I don't think have been mentioned.

Players not knowing the rules. In particular where and how to drop, whether free relief or under penalty. Having to explain all takes time.

The stupid convention where some players want everyone within say 50 yds to stand still and stop talking while they play their shot.

 

[backwoodsman]

Player
1. Not walking straight to your ball - ie waiting level with hind-most player, then walking to next etc. All balls should not quite, but almost, be airborne at same time. You can be sociable without holding each others hands <u>all</u> the way round!

2. Waiting too long to allow preceding group to be out of range - (overestimating how far one can hit a ball)

3. Not keeping your eye on other players ball. Paying attention leads to finding the errant ones a durn sight quicker.

Not Player

1.Lack of a first cut of rough (straight into the thick stuff)

2. Poor course layout - long walks green to tee, and crossing holes

3. Frequent lack of course planners. Those of us who like to play a lot of different course often have no idea what sort of trouble we're hitting into on blind shots - and hit it often and accurately.

Haven't played a two ball in years
3 ball 3:30
4 ball 3:45
(thats what it should take. If only.....)

 

[krokodil]

Murph- I have a trolley and personally think they are great things, but some courses are not conducive to them.

Take for example my course, in the winter they will cordon off huge areas around the green the trolley can't go, now in my mind that's done because the wheels must damage the grass, I don't know, I'm no greenkeeper. This cordoning means a lot of scenic trips to get the trolley round round for the next tee, this is all well and good if we are in putter territory for the next shot, but if chips/flop shots/bump and runs are required then back and forth trips to the trolley can ensue.

Generally the seniors at my club play midweek, personally I feel since they pay a reduced fee they shouldn't be entitled to play at all times. I'm not around during the week so they can play 'til their hearts content as far as I'm concerned.

Obviously I feel sorry for the seniors if the rules stipulate that trolleys arent allowed, but thats's the rules and the condition of the course comes first in my mind, rules are rules.

 

[krokodil]

medwayjon-firstly, no offence was intended by my post. My head most certainly isn't up my arse where golf etiquette is concerned, I want to enjoy my golf as much as the next guy, and if that means, in order for the many to have a good time, putting some noses out of joint then so be it.

Right so if the greenkeepers say no trolleys, they'll damage the course-what will people do?
I guess the options are: not play; use the trolley regardless; get a pencil bag and stick a few clubs in it.

Of course I have sympathy for people with physical problems, trolleys (particularly electric) have been a revelation, but I refuse to believe that the majority of players who use them couldn't carry.

I don't know about your club but at mine the seniors pay a reduced fee, so in my mind they shouldn't have the same entitlement as the full fee paying members.

Slow play is a scourge on every club I have come across, and that is not solely attributable to seniors and/or seniors with trolleys, but seniors I have experienced feel some emasculation if they have to let you through, so they just plod on and to hell to with the build up behind.

"FFS you seemingly have one hell of an attitude problem. You seriously need to pull your head out of your arse and respect the rights and needs of other people a bit more."

Nope I'm just one of the ones who is sick to death of taking over 4 1/2hrs for 18 holes due to the actions/ability of others.
Obviously there is a serious attitude problem at my club as a whole because we are desperately trying to recruit course marshals to give the problem players a kick up the a*se, because the regulars feel its killing the golf.

 

[medwayjon]

medwayjon-firstly, no offence was intended by my post. My head most certainly isn't up my arse where golf etiquette is concerned, I want to enjoy my golf as much as the next guy, and if that means, in order for the many to have a good time, putting some noses out of joint then so be it.

Right so if the greenkeepers say no trolleys, they'll damage the course-what will people do?
I guess the options are: not play; use the trolley regardless; get a pencil bag and stick a few clubs in it.

Of course I have sympathy for people with physical problems, trolleys (particularly electric) have been a revelation, but I refuse to believe that the majority of players who use them couldn't carry.

I don't know about your club but at mine the seniors pay a reduced fee, so in my mind they shouldn't have the same entitlement as the full fee paying members.

Slow play is a scourge on every club I have come across, and that is not solely attributable to seniors and/or seniors with trolleys, but seniors I have experienced feel some emasculation if they have to let you through, so they just plod on and to hell to with the build up behind.

"FFS you seemingly have one hell of an attitude problem. You seriously need to pull your head out of your arse and respect the rights and needs of other people a bit more."

Nope I'm just one of the ones who is sick to death of taking over 4 1/2hrs for 18 holes due to the actions/ability of others.
Obviously there is a serious attitude problem at my club as a whole because we are desperately trying to recruit course marshals to give the problem players a kick up the a*se, because the regulars feel its killing the golf.

You have some valid points and maybee I was a bit knee-jerk for which I apologise. TBH a bit out of character for me.

i am sorry to hear you have slow-play problems at your club, the only issue we have is with juniors who spend 5mins over every shot.