Opinions on BRS - Help me!

[lukeysafc100]

best thing our club has done.
We had the same arguments but it works well. It helps the average joe golfer to who isn't part of the big "roll-ups" or "clicks"

In terms of cost - 1 fourball per day? that's nothing!
in terms of development - you can actually get statistics on the tee times and usage. So the club can plan and market well. BRS is the future and the phone app is good and easy to use.

 

[Sweep]

Slight tangent but related nonetheless

While I play there more than anywhere else I’m not a member of the course closest to me

I can visit their online booking screen and view the status & availability, or otherwise, of every tee slot for the next 4 months. Not being a member the only thing I can’t do online is book so I need to call the pro-shop (but at least I know when I call that the date/time is available)
I can see whether they have a comp on or not, or a group booking & what size each tee-slot is. Whether there are option to start on 10th instead etc etc etc

Comps are planned well enough in advance as are larger groups but they can still facilitate groups on much shorter notice if needed and if that means moving a visitor back/forward or onto 10th tee then they know exactly who to contact

Its heaven as a visitor and in turn the club benefit from loads of us playing there regularly (to the point we are probably more known faces with the staff than many of the members)


Not sure how many members club members are paying sufficiently high annual subs that a course needs to remain ‘vacant’ just in case a member decides to rock up for 18 holes with no notice, it would certainly need to be more than most forummers quote on those threads

That’s great. For you. But it’s the members who are providing the club for you to play at and they are even paying for the BRS system as well.

I have no issue with clubs playing their part in the golfing community and welcoming visitors, but we have to be realistic. Without the members we would be left with virtually no courses and the nomadic non members would have nowhere to play. In times of declining membership numbers clubs should be looking to add benefits to membership not make membership less attractive. Its time to put members first.

I think most would be very surprised at how little visitors bring in to a club in financial terms and how much they save each member off their subs. A recent calculation at my club using accurate and accounted figures showed that if each member paid £40 more each year it would meet the amount brought in from visitors. Most clubs won’t have even made such a calculation and just blindly believe they have to sell as many tee times as possible with little consideration for the members who support the club year after year.

My club will not be much different from any other. A non member could play there 37 times a year before they had given the club the equivalent of a membership. And that’s before you calculate all the additional money the members pay in terms of pro shop spend, lessons, comp fees, bar and food and attending social functions etc.

Now, I will be the first to say that golf club membership is about much more than playing golf but let’s be honest. If membership of your local club was a better deal than you playing there as a non member, you would join, wouldn’t you?

 

[Slab]

That’s great. For you. But it’s the members who are providing the club for you to play at and they are even paying for the BRS system as well.

I have no issue with clubs playing their part in the golfing community and welcoming visitors, but we have to be realistic. Without the members we would be left with virtually no courses and the nomadic non members would have nowhere to play. In times of declining membership numbers clubs should be looking to add benefits to membership not make membership less attractive. Its time to put members first.

I think most would be very surprised at how little visitors bring in to a club in financial terms and how much they save each member off their subs. A recent calculation at my club using accurate and accounted figures showed that if each member paid £40 more each year it would meet the amount brought in from visitors. Most clubs won’t have even made such a calculation and just blindly believe they have to sell as many tee times as possible with little consideration for the members who support the club year after year.

My club will not be much different from any other. A non member could play there 37 times a year before they had given the club the equivalent of a membership. And that’s before you calculate all the additional money the members pay in terms of pro shop spend, lessons, comp fees, bar and food and attending social functions etc.

Now, I will be the first to say that golf club membership is about much more than playing golf but let’s be honest. If membership of your local club was a better deal than you playing there as a non member, you would join, wouldn’t you?

Are members providing that club & course or are they simply the currant and ever changing custodians of someone else’s investment/outlay to provide a club

The reason I’m not a member is it would cost 10’s of thousands in debenture costs + the membership + nominal green fees on top! It’s just way way out of my league but after working it out I’m a bit surprised and ashamed to admit that over the last month alone I as a simple visitor to that club have spent well in excess of £250 in green fees, range balls, drinks and meals

But I agree members are vital to certain clubs and they should benefit for their membership, that doesn’t have to mean keeping a course empty though just in case a member pops in

 

[TreeSeeker]

I think most would be very surprised at how little visitors bring in to a club in financial terms and how much they save each member off their subs. A recent calculation at my club using accurate and accounted figures showed that if each member paid £40 more each year it would meet the amount brought in from visitors.

At my club it would be nearer the £150-200 mark per member, including visitors and societies. Which is significant, and also nicely leaves us still without need for dedicated tee times (i've never had to queue for more than one group to go off ahead).

 

[r0wly86]

really like it. Not only as others have said that you can see that you can definitely get a tee time, especially if it's a last minute decision. But I can also see everyone who has gone out before so know if it is likely to be slow. My old club didn't have it, turned up got out only to find when I got to the 3rd I was behind group after group of fourballs. With BRS I can see that before I arrive and can pick a later tee time if necessary

 

[r0wly86]

I think most would be very surprised at how little visitors bring in to a club in financial terms and how much they save each member off their subs. A recent calculation at my club using accurate and accounted figures showed that if each member paid £40 more each year it would meet the amount brought in from visitors. Most clubs won’t have even made such a calculation and just blindly believe they have to sell as many tee times as possible with little consideration for the members who support the club year after year.

Wow is that really correct. How many members would that be in order for £40 increase to cover the visitors? Just out of interest because if that's the ball park figure then I would urge my old old club where my dad still plays to look into it

 

[jim8flog]

It's a glorious thought, skipping through the wheat fields, bare foot on my way to golf. Arrive at the club, grab a drink, chat for 40 minutes, go out, play 18 holes, have another drink, longer chat, skip home.

.

That's my life except skipping through the 'wheatfields' happens during a round of golf.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

We only use a booking system through IG (miles better than C2000) for club competitions.

If it was rolled out for all social tee times there would be an exodus of members leave, irrelevant of how good the course is, in fact I think an EGM would get called and it would easily get thrown out!

We’ve still got a lot of members who don’t like us advertising or marketing the club in any way, they want it all to themselves, hidden and empty for their own selfish use.

It’s all about balance, to keep fees down we need society bookings, but they need, and generally are, well organised and only on Wednesdays & Thursdays and never at weekends. Introducing a BRS system with an open door would unlock that and cause havoc, your falling into the realms of Pay & Play, which Coventry is miles away from ever becoming.

If you rolled out BRS just for members 7 days a week, with visitor slots only showing on Wednesday & Thursdays, then very traditional and successful roll ups would disappear over time, which would be bad as they help intergrate new members into our club.

I saw a BRS system in use at The Warwickshire for a Comp I’d entered and it would only display ‘booked’ in a tee time with 3 slots booked and a space that suited the time I wanted to play, but who was I playing with? There were no names or handicaps, just ‘booked’, as I was just starting to play golf at that time and being a very shy, quiet and introvert individual, I didn’t play as I didn’t want to find myself in a group of Cat1’s and be reduced to a jibbering wreck.

So, it’s a NO for me, I wouldn’t join or be at a club with any kind of ‘social’ BRS system.

There are so many elements of this that resonate with my club. We do not use social media enough or in a market savvy way. We even had two members with extensive knowledge through their business workings do an in depth presentation with costs, expected profits and a five year case scenario. Not sure the committee even bothered to read it all and it was rejected out of hand. I can't help feel that because the majority are older and not part of the social media generation it's something they simply didn't understand it and chose to bury their heads.

We are now on Teeofftimes and are flogging weekends times for a silly price cheaper than the members guest rate. How does that work and why are we letting these people on in prime time. We've even had cases of the public being able to book during a weekend comp and have rocked up expecting to be able to go out. It's not managed well and we don't need it. We have a good core of societies and these provide a good chunk of revenue. We use HDID and it meets our needs and we don't need BRS. I can't ever see the members voting for it and I don't see a need for it or the club ever looking for it

 

[Deleted member 16999]

There are so many elements of this that resonate with my club. We do not use social media enough or in a market savvy way. We even had two members with extensive knowledge through their business workings do an in depth presentation with costs, expected profits and a five year case scenario. Not sure the committee even bothered to read it all and it was rejected out of hand. I can't help feel that because the majority are older and not part of the social media generation it's something they simply didn't understand it and chose to bury their heads.

We are now on Teeofftimes and are flogging weekends times for a silly price cheaper than the members guest rate. How does that work and why are we letting these people on in prime time. We've even had cases of the public being able to book during a weekend comp and have rocked up expecting to be able to go out. It's not managed well and we don't need it. We have a good core of societies and these provide a good chunk of revenue. We use HDID and it meets our needs and we don't need BRS. I can't ever see the members voting for it and I don't see a need for it or the club ever looking for it

You use HDID and it meets your needs, yet you are on teeofftimes and people can book during comps and at cheaper than guest rates.
Why shouldn’t they expect to tee off at a time you’ve sold them!
If there’s ever a club in need of BRS or a better system it yours by what you’ve posted.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

That's my life except skipping through the 'wheatfields' happens during a round of golf.

I'm hoping to get there one day 😁.

 

[Val]

There seems to be an assumption if the club has BRS it automatically allows visitors book, this is absolutely not the case. BRS can be tailored for member only bookings.

It's easy to block out times for roll ups, even block out a few times an hour for roll ups, it's a very easy system to tailor to any clubs requirements.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

You use HDID and it meets your needs, yet you are on teeofftimes and people can book during comps and at cheaper than guest rates.
Why shouldn’t they expect to tee off at a time you’ve sold them!
If there’s ever a club in need of BRS or a better system it yours by what you’ve posted.

I get that and it's shoddy by the management but I'm glad they don't let a visiting group out in the middle of the booked medal times. We shouldn't sell the tee time and totally accept that nut either through an inability to manage the Teeofftimes system properly or laziness they let people do it. The club didn't let them out, the group weren't happy and I think they may even have left and not played. Not great publicity. However even with BRS if it isn't going to be managed efficiently I don't see how it can be any better or worse. For my tuppence worth, we, like Fish stated, shouldn't really be going down the road of letting visitors on regularly. It always use to be members guest only at weekends. If they are allowing visitors, make it after 1.00 at weekends when the course begins to quieten.

 

[Val]

Homer, the club tell teeofftimes and/or golfnow what times they get. If there is a failure it's the club rather than the system.

We are currently looking at teeofftimes too and it's mainly to sell tee time after 3 most Saturdays or after 1 most Sundays and probably between 12 and 3 week days. They (teeofftimes) are quite happy with that.

 

[edthescreamer]

We use booking system and don't see any problems with it.ours is alternate book or walk on tee times throughout the day.have not seen increase in visitors either.propietry course will be different as there are looking for a profit.the argument of what about roll ups not being able to book tee times even though they have effectively been doing it already.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I get that and it's shoddy by the management but I'm glad they don't let a visiting group out in the middle of the booked medal times. We shouldn't sell the tee time and totally accept that nut either through an inability to manage the Teeofftimes system properly or laziness they let people do it. The club didn't let them out, the group weren't happy and I think they may even have left and not played. Not great publicity. However even with BRS if it isn't going to be managed efficiently I don't see how it can be any better or worse. For my tuppence worth, we, like Fish stated, shouldn't really be going down the road of letting visitors on regularly. It always use to be members guest only at weekends. If they are allowing visitors, make it after 1.00 at weekends when the course begins to quieten.

Your club admin sounds ar5e!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Your club admin sounds ar5e!

Yes

 

[Sweep]

Wow is that really correct. How many members would that be in order for £40 increase to cover the visitors? Just out of interest because if that's the ball park figure then I would urge my old old club where my dad still plays to look into it

My club has a pretty average membership number spread over a few categories.
TBH I think most clubs are behind the curve on this. Visitors are not IMO the revenue stream they once were. Playing a course other than your own has lost its novelty value and most of us can easily access local courses for very little by playing team matches, friendlies or by playing by invitation from a member you have befriended through golf. Obviously there are exceptions like resort courses, courses in tourist areas or top 100 clubs. But for the average clubs you only have to look at the decline in Opens to get the picture and they are usually fantastic value for money.
Clubs in general have IMO seen a downward trend in visitors and have reacted by pushing harder to reverse the decline and in the process forgotten where their main income stream comes from. In my view they should start to put their members first more often because that’s where their real income is coming from.
If we said that the average subscription is £1,000 then I would say the average member puts between £1500 and £2,000 into their club each year when you add drinks, food, lessons, pro shop spend, social functions etc. That far outweighs a visitor who may come twice a year at £30 a time.

We are in danger of going off track here and I don’t want to change the subject of the thread, but I will leave you with this.

In 2012 a county union conducted a study looking at the cost of a membership subscription in their county in 1990 compared to 2012.
At the same time they looked at the cost of a visitor round without a member at clubs across their county in 1990 compared to 2012.
In 1990 the average cost of a visitor round was £20.
In 2012 it was £22. A 10% increase in 22 years.
In 1990 the cost of a membership subscription was £250.
In 2012 it was £1000. A 400% increase over the same period.
In 1990 the only financially realistic way to play regular golf was to join a club. You only had to play 12 times a year as a non member before you had spent the equivalent of a membership
In 2012 you could play 45 visitor rounds a year before you spent the same as the average subscription.
Between 1990 and 2012 “nomadic” golf had become financially beneficial. The clubs had fallen into the trap of thinking that as the course was there anyway, they may as well take a little off a visitor as additional income to play it rather than take nothing and leave the course empty. They had, in effect, devalued their own product. This has resulted in the clubs practically but unintentionally begging their members to become nomads.

Golf has never been cheaper and that is great. But it’s clear to see from these figures who is paying the true cost of golf. Membership numbers are in decline. It’s easy to see why. As I say, it’s time clubs started to put their members first.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So your plans change for the day and the wife says why don’t you go up the golf course? Prior to BRS you rocked up and if Tee busy you waited, had a chat etc, Tee empty, off you went, Society in, bugger,
BRS in place, quick look, yep, Tee empty off you go, Tee booked, I’ll go later.
The only issue to me was Sweep’s point about the Club doing it for ulterior motives.
Surely BRS is no more than a calendar of events.
As for the Pro Shop, what if there are a number visitors that phone, was there a cap on numbers or would they try and accommodate all.

Societies are different - they have the tee reserved obviously (and we can check) and we do not have any societies at weekends or weekday evenings. I'd want to pop up 'on the fly' of an evening or weekend - if tee is fully booked I'm stuffed. But as it is I just turn up and take my turn on the tee. As I am close by I don't bother phoning the club to ask if the tee is looking busy - but if I was further away that's what I'd do.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I get that and it's shoddy by the management but I'm glad they don't let a visiting group out in the middle of the booked medal times. We shouldn't sell the tee time and totally accept that nut either through an inability to manage the Teeofftimes system properly or laziness they let people do it. The club didn't let them out, the group weren't happy and I think they may even have left and not played. Not great publicity. However even with BRS if it isn't going to be managed efficiently I don't see how it can be any better or worse. For my tuppence worth, we, like Fish stated, shouldn't really be going down the road of letting visitors on regularly. It always use to be members guest only at weekends. If they are allowing visitors, make it after 1.00 at weekends when the course begins to quieten.

Which is - I think - what we do. But we have to be aware that, early in the season, members and club teams are trying to fit in lots of comp matches and so weekend afternoons have to remain pretty free of visitors.

 

[Val]

Societies are different - they have the tee reserved obviously (and we can check) and we do not have any societies at weekends or weekday evenings. I'd want to pop up 'on the fly' of an evening or weekend - if tee is fully booked I'm stuffed. But as it is I just turn up and take my turn on the tee. As I am close by I don't bother phoning the club to ask if the tee is looking busy - but if I was further away that's what I'd do.

You do realise your last sentence is a case when looking for the pluses of using BRS?