Old Man Yardages

[Klimski]

I don't know if this one does it, I'll be watching it later, but the 20 waggles before hitting a shot drives me nuts. Once they do that, I'm off.

Just hit it . Talk and hit, don't talk and waggle

I've tried to watch swing tip videos where the chap talks and talks and waggles and waggles and never even hits the shot at all!! Horrible

 

[Orikoru]

Interesting viewing for those that swing a bit slower.

The numbers he gave for swing speed + loft = distance would have been interesting, but he only gave them for 0 attack angle. I'm a 90mph player as per his first graph, except I was fitted at 9°, and I hit that far as he said 12° should go. So obviously I hit up on it. I would like to see the same chart but with a proper attack angle, say 4° up (which I think is roughly where I am). See how that affects it.

(As part of my winter tinkering I have just adjusted from 9 up to 9.5 - as I've noticed a few low-launching ones at 11 or 12 launch angle when I don't catch it out of the middle so want a bit of help on those ones.)

 

[harpo_72]

The numbers he gave for swing speed + loft = distance would have been interesting, but he only gave them for 0 attack angle. I'm a 90mph player as per his first graph, except I was fitted at 9°, and I hit that far as he said 12° should go. So obviously I hit up on it. I would like to see the same chart but with a proper attack angle, say 4° up (which I think is roughly where I am). See how that affects it.

(As part of my winter tinkering I have just adjusted from 9 up to 9.5 - as I've noticed a few low-launching ones at 11 or 12 launch angle when I don't catch it out of the middle so want a bit of help on those ones.)

Google ping table .. gives optimised spin/launch and at set speeds ..

 

[nickjdavis]

The Ping table says that for my AoA of 5.1 degrees and ball speed of 126mph my ideal launch/spin is between 16.6 and 18.7 degrees with a spin rate of 2150-2300rpm.

Unfortunately my stats fit exactly half way between the tables AoA and Ball speed rows so I've given a range...but if we averaged them to 17.7 degrees and 2225rpm then my current 16 degree launch and 2418 spin isnt too far off...maybe a tweak of the driver loft to 11 degrees might see some gains.

The Flightscope Trajectory Optimiser https://trajectory.flightscope.com/ suggests that my optimal for my ball speed is a launch closer to 21 degrees and a spin down around 2000 rpm.

Now that's all very well....but trying to manufacture a launch of 20 degrees from a driver of 9/10/11 degrees is not going to be easy....and the gains over my current carry distance are in fact minimal...maybe a mere 8 yards.....I reckon in order to achieve a launch around 20 degree's I'm going to need a driver head of around 14 degrees and maintain my +5 degree AoA....but that's going to put a huge amount of spin on the ball which may see it plummet from space.

Still....I wonder what might happen if I put my driver shaft in my 13.5 degree mini driver head and cranked the loft to 15.5 degrees? Watch this space!!!!!!

All in all though...for me and my swing we are not talking significant gains - and at low ball/club head speeds, for someone who already reasonably delivers the club well to the ball, the minimal potential gains I've noted above are not really surprising.

 

[Springveldt]

The Ping table says that for my AoA of 5.1 degrees and ball speed of 126mph my ideal launch/spin is between 16.6 and 18.7 degrees with a spin rate of 2150-2300rpm.

Unfortunately my stats fit exactly half way between the tables AoA and Ball speed rows so I've given a range...but if we averaged them to 17.7 degrees and 2225rpm then my current 16 degree launch and 2418 spin isnt too far off...maybe a tweak of the driver loft to 11 degrees might see some gains.

The Flightscope Trajectory Optimiser https://trajectory.flightscope.com/ suggests that my optimal for my ball speed is a launch closer to 21 degrees and a spin down around 2000 rpm.

Now that's all very well....but trying to manufacture a launch of 20 degrees from a driver of 9/10/11 degrees is not going to be easy....and the gains over my current carry distance are in fact minimal...maybe a mere 8 yards.....I reckon in order to achieve a launch around 20 degree's I'm going to need a driver head of around 14 degrees and maintain my +5 degree AoA....but that's going to put a huge amount of spin on the ball which may see it plummet from space.

Still....I wonder what might happen if I put my driver shaft in my 13.5 degree mini driver head and cranked the loft to 15.5 degrees? Watch this space!!!!!!

All in all though...for me and my swing we are not talking significant gains - and at low ball/club head speeds, for someone who already reasonably delivers the club well to the ball, the minimal potential gains I've noted above are not really surprising.

As you say to get that launch angle you will more than likely increase the spin, I'm not sure how you get to 20° launch and only 2000rpm spin without hitting up on it like 8 or 9 degrees. As soon as your dynamic loft goes about 14 you will more than likely be in the high 2000's spin based on my Trackman observations.

 

[Springveldt]

The numbers he gave for swing speed + loft = distance would have been interesting, but he only gave them for 0 attack angle. I'm a 90mph player as per his first graph, except I was fitted at 9°, and I hit that far as he said 12° should go. So obviously I hit up on it. I would like to see the same chart but with a proper attack angle, say 4° up (which I think is roughly where I am). See how that affects it.

(As part of my winter tinkering I have just adjusted from 9 up to 9.5 - as I've noticed a few low-launching ones at 11 or 12 launch angle when I don't catch it out of the middle so want a bit of help on those ones.)

Google ping table .. gives optimised spin/launch and at set speeds ..

 

[Orikoru]

I did find that, but it's not quite the same. Has no mention of the loft on the club, only launch angles.

With my ballspeed of 130 ish and angle of attack around 4, it suggests I need to get 16.6 launch angle and 2300 spin. So what loft gives me that? Trial and error I guess. If my spin is more like 2600 but my launch angle is 15, does that amount to the same? Who knows?

I suppose it is moderately helpful, as it suggests that 9° was maybe a tad low, I'll give 9.5° a crack. I really feel 10.5° with my particular driver would be too high though.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Been trying to have a look at this with my data but doesn’t seem to pan out well for my brain as it talks a lot about ideal spin and launch but nothing else. I’m sure some proper golf gurus and people better versed in fitting can tell me.

But my ball speed averages around 153-155 with a neutral AoA. It makes no suggestion on recommended driver loft setting. So all this chart tells me is that it’s still pure guess work for the average golfer to figure out what he needs to meet those numbers. Or is it a clever ploy to make you go get fitted for one of their hideously ugly drivers .

Good job I’ve got a fitting booked in a couple of weeks to get myself a new driver

 

[Neilds]

All this is gobbledegook to me. I just want to be able to hit it straight and a decent decent distance. I can see that with my eyes so don't need a chart.

And as most men don't even know what 6 inches looks like, how are they to measure angles and stuff on a golf course?

 

[Springveldt]

I did find that, but it's not quite the same. Has no mention of the loft on the club, only launch angles.

With my ballspeed of 130 ish and angle of attack around 4, it suggests I need to get 16.6 launch angle and 2300 spin. So what loft gives me that? Trial and error I guess. If my spin is more like 2600 but my launch angle is 15, does that amount to the same? Who knows?

I suppose it is moderately helpful, as it suggests that 9° was maybe a tad low, I'll give 9.5° a crack. I really feel 10.5° with my particular driver would be too high though.

Any loft can give you it, it depends on your impact conditions. My driver is 8 degrees and I can get launches of anywhere between 8 and 20 depending on how terrible/good I've hit it.

You really need to be on a launch monitor to figure it out, the trick is to get that launch angle without adding excessive spin so you need a face that is pretty close to the path (with 2 degrees normally) and a strike that is near the centre of the face.

Here's an example of good impact conditions, even with swinging 5 left the face being only 2 open to the path means it was a perfect pull fade. Started left and ended up within a yard of the target line.





And here's an example of bad impact conditions, face was far too open to the path so we add too much loft to the club which ramps up spin and send it miles right.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

All this is gobbledegook to me. I just want to be able to hit it straight and a decent decent distance. I can see that with my eyes so don't need a chart.

And as most men don't even know what 6 inches looks like, how are they to measure angles and stuff on a golf course?

You’re an engineer aren’t you met to understand these sort of things better than us mortals

6 inches is at least a foot long right

 

[Neilds]

You’re an engineer aren’t you met to understand these sort of things better than us mortals

6 inches is at least a foot long right

I'd design a golf ball with wings, wouldn't need to make it spin

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Any loft can give you it, it depends on your impact conditions. My driver is 8 degrees and I can get launches of anywhere between 8 and 20 depending on how terrible/good I've hit it.

You really need to be on a launch monitor to figure it out, the trick is to get that launch angle without adding excessive spin so you need a face that is pretty close to the path (with 2 degrees normally) and a strike that is near the centre of the face.

Here's an example of good impact conditions, even with swinging 5 left the face being only 2 open to the path means it was a perfect pull fade. Started left and ended up within a yard of the target line.

View attachment 61067

View attachment 61068

And here's an example of bad impact conditions, face was far to open to the path so we add too much loft to the club which ramps up spin and send it miles right.

View attachment 61069

View attachment 61070

That was quite an interesting read thanks for sharing that. But I see it as the ultimate takeaway then is the Ping chart is irrelevant , just go for a fitting and get what the fitters says works best.

 

[sunshine]

I'd design a golf ball with wings, wouldn't need to make it spin

Would it get airborne on a treadmill?

 

[Neilds]

Would it get airborne on a treadmill?

Depends on angle of attack and the loft of treadmill

 

[harpo_72]

That was quite an interesting read thanks for sharing that. But I see it as the ultimate takeaway then is the Ping chart is irrelevant , just go for a fitting and get what the fitters says works best.

It’s probably the easiest and best solution to be honest.

I don’t get hung up on what my driver loft is. I can tell too high a launch and too high spin flights, I also have in mind what I want to see.

The Ping chart is just about optimal and might explain more to the user as to what the fitter is looking at to squeeze distance out. At lower speeds spin is your friend at higher speeds it’s a nuisance.

But saying all that the main issues for the amateur are the path angles - most are quite significantly away from neutral ( being in a window of 2/-2 is pretty good - not seen a pro tour delivery consistency when they are delivering a straight shot). Face angle as the data shows can actually reduce the dispersion window on swing path ( I was struggling with closing my face so I changed the swing path and created a very predictable fade.. bit short though but very tight dispersion)

Then the launch stuff is really hard because you have at least 3 variables .. shaft kick point ( might vary with speed as well - but that’s another 10 paragraph debate and possibly a quality discussion)
Driver head weighting - back weight high launch, I think but I am not so knowledgeable on this ( I think it’s more forgiving because back spin is greater meaning less side spin)
Then the real complex one is where the head is pointing at target in your swing and is it on a downward path or upward path at that time which dictates the launch angle.. I have just realised after 30 years that my closure rate is slow meaning my face angle opens and closes slower — so I have compensated with my tee position for my driver so the head closes with face pointing straight to target, if I set the tee 0.5 inch ( 12.3mm ) inboard of my toe I get a fade ( I can exaggerate with my grip position) .. irons are unaffected for some reason ( I don’t know why , I don’t really care because they are quite accurate )

I’ll get my coat now as I have bored you all ..

 

[Klimski]

Been trying to have a look at this with my data but doesn’t seem to pan out well for my brain as it talks a lot about ideal spin and launch but nothing else. I’m sure some proper golf gurus and people better versed in fitting can tell me.

But my ball speed averages around 153-155 with a neutral AoA. It makes no suggestion on recommended driver loft setting. So all this chart tells me is that it’s still pure guess work for the average golfer to figure out what he needs to meet those numbers. Or is it a clever ploy to make you go get fitted for one of their hideously ugly drivers .

Good job I’ve got a fitting booked in a couple of weeks to get myself a new driver

153 mph ball speed is around 106 mph swing (aka club head) speed for an average smash factor.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

153 mph ball speed is around 106 mph swing (aka club head) speed for an average smash factor.

I understand that and am aware of all
Of that but the chart still doesn’t quantify what lofts to look at so original point kind of stands it’s all a bit irrelevant as data without an actual fitting.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

It’s probably the easiest and best solution to be honest.

I don’t get hung up on what my driver loft is. I can tell too high a launch and too high spin flights, I also have in mind what I want to see.

The Ping chart is just about optimal and might explain more to the user as to what the fitter is looking at to squeeze distance out. At lower speeds spin is your friend at higher speeds it’s a nuisance.

But saying all that the main issues for the amateur are the path angles - most are quite significantly away from neutral ( being in a window of 2/-2 is pretty good - not seen a pro tour delivery consistency when they are delivering a straight shot). Face angle as the data shows can actually reduce the dispersion window on swing path ( I was struggling with closing my face so I changed the swing path and created a very predictable fade.. bit short though but very tight dispersion)

Then the launch stuff is really hard because you have at least 3 variables .. shaft kick point ( might vary with speed as well - but that’s another 10 paragraph debate and possibly a quality discussion)
Driver head weighting - back weight high launch, I think but I am not so knowledgeable on this ( I think it’s more forgiving because back spin is greater meaning less side spin)
Then the real complex one is where the head is pointing at target in your swing and is it on a downward path or upward path at that time which dictates the launch angle.. I have just realised after 30 years that my closure rate is slow meaning my face angle opens and closes slower — so I have compensated with my tee position for my driver so the head closes with face pointing straight to target, if I set the tee 0.5 inch ( 12.3mm ) inboard of my toe I get a fade ( I can exaggerate with my grip position) .. irons are unaffected for some reason ( I don’t know why , I don’t really care because they are quite accurate )

I’ll get my coat now as I have bored you all ..

You’ve not bored me I found what you wrote interesting and thought provoking.

I’m very much a feel player and go by the look of the shot to understand path, alignment and loft. I know I generate decent speed and I can create a lot of spin and sit in the cusp of Stiff/XStiff depending on manufacturer. Which like you causes me issues with higher lofts just ballooning and going nowhere.

My path angle is usually +2
With my face angle also around +2 (slightly open) so my natural shot is a little push draw. As a result I struggle with higher lofted drivers and how they tend to sit a little closed, its why I usually loft down to 9° or less to get the face slightly open at address to allow me to attack the ball more and trust my natural shape, other wise I get a horrible hook shot. If I ever need to hit a fade, I’ll purposely tee the ball down, aim and hit the ball out of the heel to get a nice low cut.

I’m looking forward to my fitting in a couple of weeks to really push the boundaries and see what comes out of it.

 

[harpo_72]

You’ve not bored me I found what you wrote interesting and thought provoking.

I’m very much a feel player and go by the look of the shot to understand path, alignment and loft. I know I generate decent speed and I can create a lot of spin and sit in the cusp of Stiff/XStiff depending on manufacturer. Which like you causes me issues with higher lofts just ballooning and going nowhere.

My path angle is usually +2
With my face angle also around +2 (slightly open) so my natural shot is a little push draw. As a result I struggle with higher lofted drivers and how they tend to sit a little closed, its why I usually loft down to 9° or less to get the face slightly open at address to allow me to attack the ball more and trust my natural shape, other wise I get a horrible hook shot. If I ever need to hit a fade, I’ll purposely tee the ball down, aim and hit the ball out of the heel to get a nice low cut.

I’m looking forward to my fitting in a couple of weeks to really push the boundaries and see what comes out of it.

I like to explore the heel as well for the little movement, but it’s quite different nowadays given I was brought up on far smaller heads .. the amount you have to move to really see any movement is or feels huge or the exaggeration for actual shot shapes. I am now in a good place with my driver given my understanding of my outputs.
I am hoping I have finally solved it and can just do what I used to do with my 3 wood .. which was look at a hole pick the shape and hit the shot.
But I really must address my putting deficiencies!! Will you have a putter fitting as well ?