Not another sex discrimination thread

[Newton]

Apologies.
I know there’s another similar titled thread on the forum at the moment but I feel the subject matter is a little different to this one.
I’ve been a member at my local club for around 10 years now.
We have 3 categories of membership:
7 day – gents only, includes Saturday competition day
5 and 6 day – open to gents and ladies
I am 5 day member. I am only able to play midweek golf due to family commitments at weekends. My fees are the same as a lady 5 day member.
Likewise the 6 day membership fees for gents and ladies are the same.
We have a thriving Ladies section and they have a longstanding arrangement of a block booking on Tues mornings for their own competition.
Previously, gents could have expected to access the 1st tee just after 12pm on Tues but due to the expanding lady membership this block booking now runs from 9am through to 1.15pm.
In summer this does not present a problem, but at this time of year, it’s going dark by 3.45pm, and therefore impossible for my midweek 4 ball to play anywhere near a full round.
We feel we have in effect lost 20% of our playing privileges as we can no longer access the course on Tuesdays.
I don’t want to appear as some kind of misogynist. I have welcomed the growth in the Ladies section at our club. But in pure black and white terms, I am paying the same fees as a lady 5 day member but enjoying considerably less access to the course than my female equivalent.
I’m pretty sure there would be cries of “sex discrimination” if the shoe were on the other foot and ladies were being asked to pay the same as gents but for less playing access.
A lady who I broached this with retorted “but gents have their Saturday competition day”.
But surely that’s an irrelevance and not ‘comparing apples with apples’? 7 day members pay a considerable premium for their extra day’s golf.
Is it unreasonable to either look for parity with a lady who pays the same fees as myself or an adjustment to membership fees to acknowledge different playing privileges?
I’m pretty sure this issue must have cropped up elsewhere. Any observations would be welcomed.
Thanks.

 

[Ser Shankalot]

Am I correct in reading that at your club ladies are not allowed 7 day membership, only men? What is the rationale for that?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It’s a very well known issue within many golf clubs

a lot of clubs have a day dedicated to ladies only comps but many are moving away from the “Saturday Men Only” comps

We are in the same situation- we have the ladies who can play every single day - men are unable to play Tuesday until after 2/3 , the ladies have two tee starts so they could all be in the clubhouse after to celebrate etc etc

So basically the ladies get true 7 day membership where as the men 6 day

We are now getting the situation where there are some ladies that can’t play in the Tuesday comps want Ladies comps on the Saturdays as well - you can imagine how that is going down

Unfortunately it’s a situation that golf clubs have only got themselves to blame by creating the division years ago by saying “Ladies have Tuesdays ( or any other day ) and the men will have Saturday”

 

[rudebhoy]

Can't you book a tee time before 9am?

If they are anything like our ladies, a good number of them will only play 9 holes. I'd say at least half do that at our place.

It does puzzle me somewhat that clubs can't come up with a solution which allows the maximum number of people to play in periods of high demand, e.g. allowing people to book the back 9 only for the first 1.5 hours of daylight.

 

[sweaty sock]

I would say this is discriminatory. From your post all else is equal the only reason you cant play is your gender. So youre being discriminated against.

Easiest solution is to write a letter to your committee advising them that on a tuesday you identify as a women.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Table a motion at the next AGM to scrap any specific mens and ladies times and have 1 fee structure. 7,6,5 day whatever.

Anyone can play whenever they like within their membership tier and enter whatever competition they want.

See what falls out of it.

If there is no AGM on the horizon, have it added to the agenda for any other business at the next committee meeting and request attendance.

 

[Newton]

As always, what did the General Manager say when you told him you can't get on the course on Tuesdays?

Nothing, because myself and my playing partners haven't broached the subject yet.
We have drafted a letter to Captains committee but wanted to get feedback via this forum to gauge whether we need to 'tweak' it following any comments on here.

 

[Slab]

Minimum 78 women playing every Tuesday morning certainly sounds like a thriving ladies section

If they currently go out in 3’s maybe get them off in 4’s to reduce the time needed for reserving the tee. If already in 4-balls that’s 100+ players every week, cracking job. The club must be thrilled to bits

 

[rksquire]

I have sympathy for you if Tuesday is the only day you can play. I have equal sympathy for any ladies who can only play on Saturdays (possibly more as they can't even play Saturdays).

The problem is therefore with your club - basically, as a lady you can only have a maximum 6 day membership or 5 day; as a gent you can have 6.5, 5.5, or 4.5 day memberships as half of Tuesday is not accessible to you. However, if ladies cannot play Saturdays at your place I believe it is only right they have a day (or 0.5 day) where the course is theirs. So, as a 5 day member, it's really only 10% of the time it's not available to you (notwithstanding issues regarding poor light etc., but this doesn't affect the whole year). Whilst I see the practicalities of the problems you're having, I have to be honest and say this is a bigger issue for ladies who work (they're allowed to do that now!).

 

[Newton]

OP,
How many times a week do you play?

2 or 3 times pw

 

[sweaty sock]

If a male 5 day membership is the same price as a ladies 5 day membership, there's a problem.

I think the clubs on thin ice though regarding no 7 day memberships for women...

 

[Orikoru]

I read the post and the real problem seems to be that only men are allowed 7 day membership. What's that all about?

 

[Newton]

I have sympathy for you if Tuesday is the only day you can play. I have equal sympathy for any ladies who can only play on Saturdays (possibly more as they can't even play Saturdays).

The problem is therefore with your club - basically, as a lady you can only have a maximum 6 day membership or 5 day; as a gent you can have 6.5, 5.5, or 4.5 day memberships as half of Tuesday is not accessible to you. However, if ladies cannot play Saturdays at your place I believe it is only right they have a day (or 0.5 day) where the course is theirs. So, as a 5 day member, it's really only 10% of the time it's not available to you (notwithstanding issues regarding poor light etc., but this doesn't affect the whole year). Whilst I see the practicalities of the problems you're having, I have to be honest and say this is a bigger issue for ladies who work (they're allowed to do that now!).

I kind of knew when I posted that the Saturday 'situation' would cloud the issue. I do understand how it could be seen as hypocritical given the exclusion of ladies on that day.
My understanding is that the ladies have shown no appetite to pay an extra £3/400 plus £5 competition entry fees in order to play on Saturdays.
I do feel though that it is a separate issue.
I wanted to compare the 'value' I get for my annual fees compared to my female equivalent. I have absolutely no issue with the ladies having their comp day but if I'm getting less course time but paying the same fees, then surely membership rates should be adjusted pro rata?
PS - I did say in my original post that in summer it was not a problem, so I agree "it doesn't affect the whole year"

 

[Crow]

Ask for a 4 day gents membership at reduced rate.

 

[Robster59]

Our club got rid of Gents and Ladies memberships years ago. Now all members are either Ordinairy, Associate, County, etc.
We did this to avoid the discriminatory issues.

 

[USER1999]

I kind of knew when I posted that the Saturday 'situation' would cloud the issue. I do understand how it could be seen as hypocritical given the exclusion of ladies on that day.
My understanding is that the ladies have shown no appetite to pay an extra £3/400 plus £5 competition entry fees in order to play on Saturdays.
I do feel though that it is a separate issue.
I wanted to compare the 'value' I get for my annual fees compared to my female equivalent. I have absolutely no issue with the ladies having their comp day but if I'm getting less course time but paying the same fees, then surely membership rates should be adjusted pro rata?
PS - I did say in my original post that in summer it was not a problem, so I agree "it doesn't affect the whole year"

What about the full members who can only play on Saturday? They are really short changed, and in any AGM where your situation is raised will not have much sympathy with it.

 

[sweaty sock]

No laws about how much youre charged for playing on a Saturday.

Definitely laws about using your gender to exclude you...

 

[Newton]

What about the full members who can only play on Saturday? They are really short changed, and in any AGM where your situation is raised will not have much sympathy with it.

I agree. Paying £1000+ to play once a week wouldn't sit comfortably with me. It's an expensive round of golf. It's for that exact reason I never joined a club until later in life when my employment situation changed.
Some people join a gym and pay £100pm. Some go every day, some go once a month. Some have more free time and clearly some get better value for membership than others. That will always be the case.
But I'm sorry, I see that as a completely different issue.

 

[Newton]

No laws about how much youre charged for playing on a Saturday.

Definitely laws about using your gender to exclude you...

Exactly

 

[Slab]

I kind of knew when I posted that the Saturday 'situation' would cloud the issue. I do understand how it could be seen as hypocritical given the exclusion of ladies on that day.
My understanding is that the ladies have shown no appetite to pay an extra £3/400 plus £5 competition entry fees in order to play on Saturdays.
I do feel though that it is a separate issue.
I wanted to compare the 'value' I get for my annual fees compared to my female equivalent. I have absolutely no issue with the ladies having their comp day but if I'm getting less course time but paying the same fees, then surely membership rates should be adjusted pro rata?
PS - I did say in my original post that in summer it was not a problem, so I agree "it doesn't affect the whole year"

My apologies, I thought you wanted to play golf on a Tuesday afternoon. Didn’t catch on that it’s just about the money/perceived fairness. Just ignore my earlier post and a couple of the others that are simply offering possible ways for you to get a game in that day