NHS ??????

[williamalex1]

Just read this in The Sunday Mail . Seemingly Lothian NHS is paying £1715 for agency nurses to work a standard 12 hour shift = £125 per hour = £250,000 a year . Obviously the nurses only get a fraction of that .
Agency Doctors cost £179.70 an hour or £2156 for a 12 hour shift.
Can't be right, surely individual hospitals should have a list of nurses available to work at short notice, cutting out agencies as much as possible.

 

[Tashyboy]

Missis Tashys last job in the NHS was Urology outreach. In essence she was a district nurse that went out to peoples homes and put in catheters etc. The local Doctors footed the bill. That was cheaper than said local Doctor paying for ambulance to pick up patient, bed for a night or two and transport home. For the hospital trust, it meant an empty bed and the capcity to charge another doctor for his patient occupying said empty bed. the Trust was making a fortune.
She was in that job Because. Her previous job was a Bank nurse co ordinator. As part of her role she hired and fired and trained anything from care assistants who then trained to become nurse, Nurses etc. her job was to make sur that she and two others had enough Bank care staff to cover the hospital when there was a shortage of staff. It wasn't just a cast of supplying staff, but staff that was trained to an excellent level. She loved it. it was running to 98% coverage of all shifts required.
One day she had a phone call, a new manager had been promoted who said she had identified 3 posts the trust did not require, it would save the Trust £105,000 per year. One of those posts was Missis tashys.
2 years later Gloria del Piero who was Labour MP for ashfield asked under the freedom of information act. 'What is the yearly bill for Kings Mill trust agency nurses". It was running at £4.5 million pounds.
Now don't get me wrong, i am proper pissed off re how Missis T has been treated over the years. She has done her best for both patients and the NHS. But there are hidden agendas. People who run the NHS, chief execs have an agenda that is driven from above. If they don't do as is asked, they will be dumped for someone who will.
The figures you quote William are the tip of the iceberg.
i could talk all night about this, but my main grief is this.Why are we now so dependant on the NHS being supported by staff from all four corners of the world and if that fails, expensive agency staff. How have we got to a situation that we cannot train our own children.
Because the NHS is slowly being privatised.

 

[Dando]

Just read this in The Sunday Mail . Seemingly Lothian NHS is paying £1715 for agency nurses to work a standard 12 hour shift = £125 per hour = £250,000 a year . Obviously the nurses only get a fraction of that .
Agency Doctors cost £179.70 an hour or £2156 for a 12 hour shift.
Can't be right, surely individual hospitals should have a list of nurses available to work at short notice, cutting out agencies as much as possible.

Wait til you find out how much PFI hospitals pay to have a light bulb changed

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Just read this in The Sunday Mail . Seemingly Lothian NHS is paying £1715 for agency nurses to work a standard 12 hour shift = £125 per hour = £250,000 a year . Obviously the nurses only get a fraction of that .
Agency Doctors cost £179.70 an hour or £2156 for a 12 hour shift.
Can't be right, surely individual hospitals should have a list of nurses available to work at short notice, cutting out agencies as much as possible.

It depends which agency and whether it is a specialised nurse in a specialised area. Similar with doctors. Some agencies are more expensive than others. We have one (Thornbury) that we can only book in exceptional circumstances and with specific approval from the duty manager and duty bed managers. We have a number of doctors on a zero hours contract that we pay for by shift at agreed rates (much cheaper than agency rates). Usually these are ex-rotational doctors or former employees that have worked in ICU as part of their rotation and so know the staff and work.

 

[williamalex1]

It depends which agency and whether it is a specialised nurse in a specialised area. Similar with doctors. Some agencies are more expensive than others. We have one (Thornbury) that we can only book in exceptional circumstances and with specific approval from the duty manager and duty bed managers. We have a number of doctors on a zero hours contract that we pay for by shift at agreed rates (much cheaper than agency rates). Usually these are ex-rotational doctors or former employees that have worked in ICU as part of their rotation and so know the staff and work.

Wait til you find out how much PFI hospitals pay to have a light bulb changed

As you suggest, In the same article it states that NHS Lothian are paying £1.4 million a month in PFI repayments for Edinburgh's Royal Sick Childrens hospital, despite patients being unable to move in over safety fears.

 

[Hobbit]

As you suggest, In the same article it states that NHS Lothian are paying £1.4 million a month in PFI repayments for Edinburgh's Royal Sick Childrens hospital, despite patients being unable to move in over safety fears.

£1.4m a month is peanuts compared what happens during the 30 year PFI contract. A typical scenario runs thus; new building put up, and equipped on day 1, year zero. Within the contract will, usually, be a clause to renew the equipment at year 10, year 20 and year 30. That 4 full equipment renewals for the hospital.

A decent ICU will be, say, 15 bed. 15x intensive care ventilators at £40k. 6x transfer ventilators. Each bed will have about 6x infusions pumps. Each infusion pump will have dedicated tubing(giving sets) which are changed for each patient, and sometimes several times for one patient. Each bed will have networked patient monitoring(ECG, Breath rate, Pulse Blood pressure, arterial blood pressure etc). The bed itself costs thousands, and doesn't last 10 years. Then there's the High Dependency Unit, and Coronary Care and cardiac intensive care, and the Renal Unit, and the paediatric intensive care, and the Special Care Baby Unit. Add, maybe, 30 general wards.

A decent size hospital will have upwards of 40 operating theatres, which means they have 40 induction rooms for those theatres = 80 anaesthetic machines @ £40k. All theatres will have patient monitoring, as will the recovery room.

A PFI landlord might be Balfour Beatty but there'll be a whole host of PFI partners tied in with Balfour Beatty.

The hospital Trust will approach its landlord for equipment renewal. And the landlord will talk to its PFI partners. The Trust will also alert NHS Procurement(hearty bloody hahahaha - now there's a huge misnomer). NHS Procurement will charge the Trust for its services and will charge the PFI partners for its services......... and thanks to Tony Blair, NHS Procurement is majority owned by DHL.

Whatever you might have heard about how bad PFI might be for draining money out of the NHS... don't get me started...

 

[williamalex1]

£1.4m a month is peanuts compared what happens during the 30 year PFI contract. A typical scenario runs thus; new building put up, and equipped on day 1, year zero. Within the contract will, usually, be a clause to renew the equipment at year 10, year 20 and year 30. That 4 full equipment renewals for the hospital.

A decent ICU will be, say, 15 bed. 15x intensive care ventilators at £40k. 6x transfer ventilators. Each bed will have about 6x infusions pumps. Each infusion pump will have dedicated tubing(giving sets) which are changed for each patient, and sometimes several times for one patient. Each bed will have networked patient monitoring(ECG, Breath rate, Pulse Blood pressure, arterial blood pressure etc). The bed itself costs thousands, and doesn't last 10 years. Then there's the High Dependency Unit, and Coronary Care and cardiac intensive care, and the Renal Unit, and the paediatric intensive care, and the Special Care Baby Unit. Add, maybe, 30 general wards.

A decent size hospital will have upwards of 40 operating theatres, which means they have 40 induction rooms for those theatres = 80 anaesthetic machines @ £40k. All theatres will have patient monitoring, as will the recovery room.

A PFI landlord might be Balfour Beatty but there'll be a whole host of PFI partners tied in with Balfour Beatty.

The hospital Trust will approach its landlord for equipment renewal. And the landlord will talk to its PFI partners. The Trust will also alert NHS Procurement(hearty bloody hahahaha - now there's a huge misnomer). NHS Procurement will charge the Trust for its services and will charge the PFI partners for its services......... and thanks to Tony Blair, NHS Procurement is majority owned by DHL.

Whatever you might have heard about how bad PFI might be for draining money out of the NHS... don't get me started...

The hospital has never been occupied due to safety fears, but they're still paying 1.4 million a month, can't be right surely. That's like you buying a house but not able to live in it

 

[SocketRocket]

Why on earth dont we just give free Uni along with bursaries for medical undergraduates then pay a very good salary when practising. This policy of paying agency staff and poaching medical professionals from poorer countries who have invested in their training is despicable and as a country we should be ashamed. And this applies to any political party, about time we de-weaponised the NHS from Politics.

 

[Hobbit]

The hospital has never been occupied due to safety fears, but they're still paying 1.4 million a month, can't be right surely. That's like you buying a house but not able to live in it

Surely the hospital are claiming it back from the building consortium? I know from being involved in a number of PFI's and builds the penalties for not hitting the opening date are horrendous

 

[williamalex1]

Surely the hospital are claiming it back from the building consortium? I know from being involved in a number of PFI's and builds the penalties for not hitting the opening date are horrendous

Sorry Brian I don't know, I'm only quoting the article in today's Sunday Mail, it doesn't mention any claim back.

 

[HowlingGale]

If you think that's bad I have a few stories about doctors that would make your eyes water. Not going to post them on a public forum but let's just say the numbers quoted above are chicken feed. And that's why I have very little sympathy for doctors complaining about pay etc.

Also considering the NHS are paying upwards of £15k per month on Scaffolding along the entire perimeter of our new (ish) Superhospital due to glass falling off the building, it gives you some idea of the waste involved.

 

[Tashyboy]

Why on earth dont we just give free Uni along with bursaries for medical undergraduates then pay a very good salary when practising. This policy of paying agency staff and poaching medical professionals from poorer countries who have invested in their training is despicable and as a country we should be ashamed. And this applies to any political party, about time we de-weaponised the NHS from Politics.

Is the correct answer. 👍

 

[IanM]

About time we de-weaponised the NHS from Politics.

Yep. You name any of the issues folk spout about the NHS (from all sides of political divide) and pretty much all of them are true!

Just to add I am working on a Public Sector Procurement currently. The regulations and processes mean it will take 3 years to award the contract from start to finish. Private sector would have been approx 6 months.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Why on earth dont we just give free Uni along with bursaries for medical undergraduates then pay a very good salary when practising. This policy of paying agency staff and poaching medical professionals from poorer countries who have invested in their training is despicable and as a country we should be ashamed. And this applies to any political party, about time we de-weaponised the NHS from Politics.

Why do you call it poaching what the NHS is currently having to do to keep services running? That's an emotive word that doesn't actually reflect what the NHS is having to do. Poaching is illegal and a subterfuge. Overseas recruitment is neither. Far from it.

So for instance - we don't have sufficient paramedics in London. One of my mates who works as a senior paramedic in the London Ambulance Service has to go out to Australia fairly regularly to try and tempt Australians to come to the UK to work as paramedics.

https://apcollege.edu.au/become-a-paramedic-with-the-london-ambulance-service/

They come - and we train them up and give an allowance for accommodation - but many leave as soon as they can due to difficult working and living conditions, living in the UK (London especially) is not all they imagined.

So we are not poaching paramedics and other staff that the NHS is desperately short of from overseas - we are recruiting to keep it running. Used it in the context of recruiting from poorer countries - yes there are issues with doing that - but I feel it an overly emotive description of overseas recruitment from any country that should be avoided as it simply plays into an immigration control/anti-immigration talking-point (I am not suggesting any such reason for the use here).

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Just read this in The Sunday Mail . Seemingly Lothian NHS is paying £1715 for agency nurses to work a standard 12 hour shift = £125 per hour = £250,000 a year . Obviously the nurses only get a fraction of that .
Agency Doctors cost £179.70 an hour or £2156 for a 12 hour shift.
Can't be right, surely individual hospitals should have a list of nurses available to work at short notice, cutting out agencies as much as possible.

Scottish NHS are desperately short of nurses since the eastern Europeans went home.
Double whammy of the falling value of £££ due to Brexit and the feeling of being unwanted/undervalued by the political loud mouths of the right wing UK political parties.
Hopefully in an independent Scotland will be able to entice them back.

 

[IanM]

Eastern Europeans gone home? Not according to the ONS...or my experience in Southampton which has the largest Polish population in the UK. Not happening in Wales either... maybe they've moved south as they didn't like Scotland? Falling value of sterling still doesn't make working in the UK uneconomic for E Europeans, wage gap is that wide.

Don't worry Doon...we are not leaving the EU. Never have been, we've just had 3 years of pretence to make it look like it's too tough to do. ooops wrong thread!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The issue was NHS skilled staff.
In conversations with my friends and relatives down south [that's Essex/ Hants/Wilts not Galloway btw] they are experiencing similar problems.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Sorry Brian I don't know, I'm only quoting the article in today's Sunday Mail, it doesn't mention any claim back.

The contractors are paying the costs for defaults, but there are other issues that have come up in the investigation that will involve an additional cost to the trust. They are addressing those at the same time. Not great but makes sense.

 

[SocketRocket]

Why do you call it poaching what the NHS is currently having to do to keep services running? That's an emotive word that doesn't actually reflect what the NHS is having to do. Poaching is illegal and a subterfuge. Overseas recruitment is neither. Far from it.

So for instance - we don't have sufficient paramedics in London. One of my mates who works as a senior paramedic in the London Ambulance Service has to go out to Australia fairly regularly to try and tempt Australians to come to the UK to work as paramedics.

https://apcollege.edu.au/become-a-paramedic-with-the-london-ambulance-service/

They come - and we train them up and give an allowance for accommodation - but many leave as soon as they can due to difficult working and living conditions, living in the UK (London especially) is not all they imagined.

So we are not poaching paramedics and other staff that the NHS is desperately short of from overseas - we are recruiting to keep it running. Used it in the context of recruiting from poorer countries - yes there are issues with doing that - but I feel it an overly emotive description of overseas recruitment from any country that should be avoided as it simply plays into an immigration control/anti-immigration talking-point (I am not suggesting any such reason for the use here).

I say it because that's what it is. We actively recruit nurses, doctors etc from countries like India, Philippines, Pakistan etc who have been trained at the expense of these poorer countries. Its disgraceful and we should be training suitable numbers ourselves and funding the training and salaries to retain them.
Poaching is absolutely the correct term.

 

[IanM]

Next door neighbours' daughter had to defer her entry to Cardiff Uni to do medicine for a year as "we were over our threshold of UK students." These places are run by ideology, not logic.