NHS ??????

SocketRocket said:
I say it because that's what it is. We actively recruit nurses, doctors etc from countries like India, Philippines, Pakistan etc who have been trained at the expense of these poorer countries. Its disgraceful and we should be training suitable numbers ourselves and funding the training and salaries to retain them.
Poaching is absolutely the correct term.
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It absolutely is not - poaching is illegal and a subterfuge. Explain what is illegal and a subterfuge about the NHS's overseas recruitment policy.

We are recruiting the staff we need. We will not be alone in doing that I am sure. It may certainly be problematic for the countries many leave to work in the NHS - but if we train up staff from countries such as those that you mention then at least some will in time return to their own country - and we can take credit for their training and that they will be better able to serve the peoples of their own country.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
It absolutely is not - poaching is illegal and a subterfuge. Explain what is illegal and a subterfuge about the NHS's overseas recruitment policy.

We are recruiting the staff we need. We will not be alone in doing that I am sure. It may certainly be problematic for the countries many leave to work in the NHS - but if we train up staff from countries such as those that you mention then at least some will in time return to their own country - and we can take credit for their training and that they will be better able to serve the peoples of their own country.
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Your post is a semantic cop out. You know fine well what I mean by poaching and its not akin to stealing fish. I'll tell you whats wrong with the way we 'entice' (maybe that word will sit easier with you) trained medical professionals away from poorer countries is that its Lazy and unbefitting a rich country like ours. If these countries can find the money to teach them then we should be able to do the same.
Saying they will return to their own countries in time is a very poor defence for our behaviour.
 
IanM said:
Next door neighbours' daughter had to defer her entry to Cardiff Uni to do medicine for a year as "we were over our threshold of UK students." These places are run by ideology, not logic.
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Not forgetting the fees they can charge overseas students
 
SocketRocket said:
Your post is a semantic cop out. You know fine well what I mean by poaching and its not akin to stealing fish. I'll tell you whats wrong with the way we 'entice' (maybe that word will sit easier with you) trained medical professionals away from poorer countries is that its Lazy and unbefitting a rich country like ours. If these countries can find the money to teach them then we should be able to do the same.
Saying they will return to their own countries in time is a very poor defence for our behaviour.
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Words are important - and you know that very well. So much of what is wrong or difficult with the country at the moment has been driven by emotions - and words drive emotions.

My defence of overseas recruitment is simply that at the moment - and for the last goodness knows how many years - we have to either go abroad to recruit, or accept our NHS is going to be knackered. What a good idea removing the nurses bursary was. Indeed my recently retired Mrs already thinks that it is badly broken, and as very many experienced nurses she knows will be will retiring in the coming few years it will become ever more so broken. Where are all the experienced nurses to replace all of those leaving with 30-40yrs experience going to come from?

https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/news/removing-the-student-nurse-bursary-has-been-a-disaster

We reap what we sow.
 
Tashyboy said:
Missis Tashys last job in the NHS was Urology outreach. In essence she was a district nurse that went out to peoples homes and put in catheters etc. The local Doctors footed the bill. That was cheaper than said local Doctor paying for ambulance to pick up patient, bed for a night or two and transport home. For the hospital trust, it meant an empty bed and the capcity to charge another doctor for his patient occupying said empty bed. the Trust was making a fortune.
She was in that job Because. Her previous job was a Bank nurse co ordinator. As part of her role she hired and fired and trained anything from care assistants who then trained to become nurse, Nurses etc. her job was to make sur that she and two others had enough Bank care staff to cover the hospital when there was a shortage of staff. It wasn't just a cast of supplying staff, but staff that was trained to an excellent level. She loved it. it was running to 98% coverage of all shifts required.
One day she had a phone call, a new manager had been promoted who said she had identified 3 posts the trust did not require, it would save the Trust £105,000 per year. One of those posts was Missis tashys.
2 years later Gloria del Piero who was Labour MP for ashfield asked under the freedom of information act. 'What is the yearly bill for Kings Mill trust agency nurses". It was running at £4.5 million pounds.
Now don't get me wrong, i am proper pissed off re how Missis T has been treated over the years. She has done her best for both patients and the NHS. But there are hidden agendas. People who run the NHS, chief execs have an agenda that is driven from above. If they don't do as is asked, they will be dumped for someone who will.
The figures you quote William are the tip of the iceberg.
i could talk all night about this, but my main grief is this.Why are we now so dependant on the NHS being supported by staff from all four corners of the world and if that fails, expensive agency staff. How have we got to a situation that we cannot train our own children.
Because the NHS is slowly being privatised.
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this sounds like nonsense because the NHS isn’t funded like that.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Words are important - and you know that very well. So much of what is wrong or difficult with the country at the moment has been driven by emotions - and words drive emotions.

My defence of overseas recruitment is simply that at the moment - and for the last goodness knows how many years - we have to either go abroad to recruit, or accept our NHS is going to be knackered. What a good idea removing the nurses bursary was. Indeed my recently retired Mrs already thinks that it is badly broken, and as very many experienced nurses she knows will be will retiring in the coming few years it will become ever more so broken. Where are all the experienced nurses to replace all of those leaving with 30-40yrs experience going to come from?

https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/news/removing-the-student-nurse-bursary-has-been-a-disaster

We reap what we sow.
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You know fair well what I meant but decided you wanted to be offended.

Read my previous post for my views on the NHS and how it needs to be De-weaponised by politicians.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
but I feel it an overly emotive description
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Words are important - and you know that very well. So much of what is wrong or difficult with the country at the moment has been driven by emotions - and words drive emotions.
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I find it quite surprising that after three and a half years of posts from you such as "crash out", "cliff edge" and "rocks below" among others, that you are all of a sudden concerned with the use of emotive language. Perhaps people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Or you might prefer, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
 
Kellfire said:
this sounds like nonsense because the NHS isn’t funded like that.

Can you tell us how hospitals make money Then. Can you tell us why women have to keep going back to there GPs every time they find a lump in there breast and don't have an open appointment to see consultants. Because the hospital gets paid for every referral.
Can you tell us why the NHS is pushing for more home nursing in urology, cancer care, Stoma nurses, etc etc etc.Rather than just say it's nonsense. Missis T who was at the *** end of NHS positive changes don't think it's nonsense.
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Hobbit said:
Surely the hospital are claiming it back from the building consortium? I know from being involved in a number of PFI's and builds the penalties for not hitting the opening date are horrendous
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It was signed off as being ready and accepted from the builders.
 
SocketRocket said:
Your post is a semantic cop out. You know fine well what I mean by poaching and its not akin to stealing fish. I'll tell you whats wrong with the way we 'entice' (maybe that word will sit easier with you) trained medical professionals away from poorer countries is that its Lazy and unbefitting a rich country like ours. If these countries can find the money to teach them then we should be able to do the same.
Saying they will return to their own countries in time is a very poor defence for our behaviour.
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I think poaching is quite apt as we are literally stealing another country’s talent, we are the equivalent of Man City, we don’t produce the talent we let others discover it and nurture it then when it’s ready we turn its head with a big money contract. It’s shameful.
 
The NHS by and large is a fantastic organisation that is a credit to the UK and I agree from a political stand point needs de-weaponising. However there have been some massive mismanagement issues at varying trusts over the years in salaries paid verse actual pay outs.

My sister worked at Medway NHS Trust for 28 years from the age of 21 in a min medical role but got to high management level, in 2013 they were supposed to merge with Darenth Valley hospital as both were supposedly struggling with debts and other mismanagement issues, as a result of the merger she like many others was made redundant as they didn't need 2 people doing the exact same role for a merged trust, she was given a ridiculously high redundancy package as well as being given full pension entitlement once she hits 55, she took her large settlement meaning the position was made redundant ready to merge and a week later the merger was called off as it was to costly! As a result the 2 trusts ended up understaffed in the areas redundancy was made and brought in outside agency consultant's for the particular roles costing even more money.. Its mismanagement issues like that and the outsourcing of things like procurement that need resolving to reduce unnecessary costs so funds can be diverted to the true areas of need and that's patient care and decent facilities.
 
Fade and Die said:
I think poaching is quite apt as we are literally stealing another country’s talent, we are the equivalent of Man City, we don’t produce the talent we let others discover it and nurture it then when it’s ready we turn its head with a big money contract. It’s shameful.
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it may be shameful ... but it works.. (I am assuming you are not a City supporter).

What is the option for that talent..
1) try and make it in the home country? It is likely that it is highly competitive and the environment does not exist for it to thrive. So the Talent is wasted an nobody benrfos

2) some other club/country takes it and instead of City, you have someone else at the top.

The only shameful bit in this situation is not that City pouches/scouts other countries but the bit that it does not nurture its own.
The NHS is wonderful. The shameful bit that successive govts have done is to kill student places for Doctors, Nurses, mid wives etc. If we can fill the NHS with a steady stream of home talent then it’s win-win but we don’t have the numbers (as we have systemically eradicated it) and therefore we should be allowed to scout the world for it.
 
Fade and Die said:
I think poaching is quite apt as we are literally stealing another country’s talent, we are the equivalent of Man City, we don’t produce the talent we let others discover it and nurture it then when it’s ready we turn its head with a big money contract. It’s shameful.
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Jason Sancho and phil Foden to name but a few. Not really a decent analogy but we should be training our own.
 
In regards getting doctors from abroad I’m struggling to understand the issue ?

we clearly don’t have the resources in this country to fill the gaps , there is clearly not enough interest in schools and unis for people to become doctors to fill the gaps so what is wrong with the NHS recruiting the best people for the job regardless of where they come from ?

I thought the idea was that we get the best doctors possible ? Or does it have to be a UK National now ?

No one is forcing people to join the NHS but they are doing it to better themselves - surely that’s what we all want - the best ?
 
Liverpoolphil said:
In regards getting doctors from abroad I’m struggling to understand the issue ?

we clearly don’t have the resources in this country to fill the gaps , there is clearly not enough interest in schools and unis for people to become doctors to fill the gaps so what is wrong with the NHS recruiting the best people for the job regardless of where they come from ?

I thought the idea was that we get the best doctors possible ? Or does it have to be a UK National now ?

No one is forcing people to join the NHS but they are doing it to better themselves - surely that’s what we all want - the best ?
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Yes, but I think the criticism is more that the countries who paid to train them are now bereft of doctors and nurses, and hence have a much poorer medical care than they planned to have. But we are ok, so it's fine.
 
SocketRocket said:
I say it because that's what it is. We actively recruit nurses, doctors etc from countries like India, Philippines, Pakistan etc who have been trained at the expense of these poorer countries. Its disgraceful and we should be training suitable numbers ourselves and funding the training and salaries to retain them.
Poaching is absolutely the correct term.
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Whilst in hospital, last year, seemed the majority of the nursing staff were "in training" ... Many from the areas mentioned in your post... The majority advised/suggested that once their training was completed they would be taking their skills elsewhere... Adding, not only are the salaries better in Oz so is the weather... Plus, for trips back home, it's a whole lot closer...
 
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