NHS ??????

[Mudball]

Yes, but I think the criticism is more that the countries who paid to train them are now bereft of doctors and nurses, and hence have a much poorer medical care than they planned to have. But we are ok, so it's fine.

If you train at a govt medical school in India (which is subsidised). then it is mandatory that the students will work in the govt medical system in India for 'x' no of years. Those who go to fee paying schools dont have that obligations and many choose to go overseas to US, UK, Canada, Middle East etc. It is not poaching if the students choose to move overseas.

 

[Kellfire]

have to make this up because it didn’t quite properly

GPs dictate funding and how referrals work. Not the other way round.

 

[Fade and Die]

it may be shameful ... but it works.. (I am assuming you are not a City supporter).

What is the option for that talent..
1) try and make it in the home country? It is likely that it is highly competitive and the environment does not exist for it to thrive. So the Talent is wasted an nobody benrfos

2) some other club/country takes it and instead of City, you have someone else at the top.

The only shameful bit in this situation is not that City pouches/scouts other countries but the bit that it does not nurture its own.
The NHS is wonderful. The shameful bit that successive govts have done is to kill student places for Doctors, Nurses, mid wives etc. If we can fill the NHS with a steady stream of home talent then it’s win-win but we don’t have the numbers (as we have systemically eradicated it) and therefore we should be allowed to scout the world for it.

Jason Sancho and phil Foden to name but a few. Not really a decent analogy but we should be training our own.

You lads are focusing on the example and not the point I’m making. A few years ago I would have said Chelsea. This thread is about the NHS.

 

[Backache]

we clearly don’t have the resources in this country to fill the gaps , there is clearly not enough interest in schools and unis for people to become doctors to fill the gaps so what is wrong with the NHS recruiting the best people for the job regardless of where they come from ?

A lot of it is about poor planning in this country there has been plenty of interest in school children becoming doctors , medical schools have not been short of applicants they are consistently oversubscribed. Down the years Governments have consistently underestimated the number of doctors needed so there are just not enough places.

 

[USER1999]

Surely the number of places at Med school is down to the school, not the Government?

 

[Backache]

Surely the number of places at Med school is down to the school, not the Government?

Nope it's determined by the Government.

 

[Mudball]

You lads are focusing on the example and not the point I’m making. A few years ago I would have said Chelsea. This thread is about the NHS.

You missed it too mate .. wound not matter if it was Chelsea either.. Global talent is fairly mobile and they will choose to come here. As a country we dont have the resources to fill the gaps, so we are net importers.

If after Brexit (this is not a Brexit thread), the UK as a country is no longer seen as a place that skilled Drs or Nurses dont want to come, then you will see the numbers drop. They will choose to go to Canada or US. Similarly footballers may choose to skip City/Chelsea to play in the LA Liga or European clubs.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

A lot of it is about poor planning in this country there has been plenty of interest in school children becoming doctors , medical schools have not been short of applicants they are consistently oversubscribed. Down the years Governments have consistently underestimated the number of doctors needed so there are just not enough places.

So why are the government not allowing more doctors to be qualified in the UK ?

 

[Backache]

So why are the government not allowing more doctors to be qualified in the UK ?

They misjudged the number required or were too stingy to invest the money depending on whether you believe cock up or conspiracy or a bit of both.
There has never been a time when the NHS has been self sufficient in Doctors. in terms of now they are increasing numbers but it takes 5 years to turn out a doctor and far more to train them further
To be honest I think the more egregious mistake was taking away the bursary from nurses and forcing them to take loans to train. There was a shortage at the time and it is a pretty fundamental law of economics that if you make something more expensive demand goes down.

 

[Mudball]

They misjudged the number required or were too stingy to invest the money depending on whether you believe cock up or conspiracy or a bit of both.
There has never been a time when the NHS has been self sufficient in Doctors. in terms of now they are increasing numbers but it takes 5 years to turn out a doctor and far more to train them further
To be honest I think the more egregious mistake was taking away the bursary from nurses and forcing them to take loans to train. There was a shortage at the time and it is a pretty fundamental law of economics that if you make something more expensive demand goes down.

could not agree more.
In the name of austerity/belt tightening / privatisation etc, subsequent govts (Tory & Labour) have decimated the NHS supply chain

 

[Hobbit]

In regards getting doctors from abroad I’m struggling to understand the issue ?

we clearly don’t have the resources in this country to fill the gaps , there is clearly not enough interest in schools and unis for people to become doctors to fill the gaps so what is wrong with the NHS recruiting the best people for the job regardless of where they come from ?

I thought the idea was that we get the best doctors possible ? Or does it have to be a UK National now ?

No one is forcing people to join the NHS but they are doing it to better themselves - surely that’s what we all want - the best ?

Quite funny (ironic) that SR has been peppering the Brexit immigration debate, roundly defending bringing people with the right skills but calls this issue immoral.

No one forces a doctor or nurse from another country to take up a post in the UK. They choose. And if the issue is remuneration, maybe the home country needs to look at its salary structure.

 

[Tashyboy]

GPs dictate funding and how referrals work. Not the other way round.

GPS dictate there funding, said Gp has 2 options. said patient who has already been referred by GP needs to go to hospital to have a routine catheter changed. Said patient is bed ridden. So he can either pay for transport to hospital, pay for patient to be in bed, possibly over night. Then pay for said patient to go home the day after. Or he can pay for Missis T and others to go out to said patients house. Change catheter and call back end of shift to see if everything is ok. Which would be the cheaper option for said GP. But you are only looking at it from a £ point of view. Where would said patient be happier, in hospital or the comfort of his own home.

 

[Tashyboy]

They misjudged the number required or were too stingy to invest the money depending on whether you believe cock up or conspiracy or a bit of both.
There has never been a time when the NHS has been self sufficient in Doctors. in terms of now they are increasing numbers but it takes 5 years to turn out a doctor and far more to train them further
To be honest I think the more egregious mistake was taking away the bursary from nurses and forcing them to take loans to train. There was a shortage at the time and it is a pretty fundamental law of economics that if you make something more expensive demand goes down.

Re the bursary, everyone knew what would happen taking it away. So why was it allowed to happen. Another step towards Privatisation me finks.
Missis T was of a generation of nurses who are in a time zone of early retirement. They are leaving in droves and not being replaced. Some are going back part time and thinking shove it.

 

[SocketRocket]

Quite funny (ironic) that SR has been peppering the Brexit immigration debate, roundly defending bringing people with the right skills but calls this issue immoral.

No one forces a doctor or nurse from another country to take up a post in the UK. They choose. And if the issue is remuneration, maybe the home country needs to look at its salary structure.

There is a big difference between bringing in Medical professionals from poorer countries to bringing brick layers/plumbers and electricians, in my previous thread I explained my views on how we should give free Tuition Fees, Bursaries and very good wages to attract more into the profession. If poorer countries can do it then why not us.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You missed it too mate .. wound not matter if it was Chelsea either.. Global talent is fairly mobile and they will choose to come here. As a country we dont have the resources to fill the gaps, so we are net importers.

If after Brexit (this is not a Brexit thread), the UK as a country is no longer seen as a place that skilled Drs or Nurses dont want to come, then you will see the numbers drop. They will choose to go to Canada or US. Similarly footballers may choose to skip City/Chelsea to play in the LA Liga or European clubs.

...and then (as an aside) look at the state of affairs with regards to vets - where we have about 95% of vets working in UK abattoirs being from overseas, with the majority being trained in the rEU - and 45% of government vets are rUK-trained. Overall 48% of UK vets were non-UK or other (BVA, 2017). The report also points out...

In a scenario where the UK is trading under World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, there is likely to be an increased requirement for vets to fulfil these crucial roles.

There just isn't the capacity in the UK to train enough vets - so we will have to be trying to tempt them to the UK...though reports are that fewer are coming since we voted to leave the EU. And in the event of a No Deal Brexit...?

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/vets-no-deal-brexit-preparation-816853

So not just you and I probably not getting the medical services we'd hope from the NHS due to shortage of doctors and nurses - our pets might not be getting what they need won't either...never mind.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There is a big difference between bringing in Medical professionals from poorer countries to bringing brick layers/plumbers and electricians, in my previous thread I explained my views on how we should give free Tuition Fees, Bursaries and very good wages to attract more into the profession. If poorer countries can do it then why not us.

Because we don't want to pay the taxes to fund the training and build the medical schools?

 

[Hobbit]

There is a big difference between bringing in Medical professionals from poorer countries to bringing brick layers/plumbers and electricians, in my previous thread I explained my views on how we should give free Tuition Fees, Bursaries and very good wages to attract more into the profession. If poorer countries can do it then why not us.

I agree on the bursaries/training etc but I still think you're exhibiting double standards. Is it ok for there to be shortage of housing and running water in those countries? I 'get' that life is more important than a house, if you're going to take it to a base level, but I feel that your argument is flawed.

 

[williamalex1]

I think part of the problem is more people are going private and basically jumping the queue.
I admit my wife and I have did this on a few occasions.
Usually seeing the same NHS consultant, but in a private hospital.

 

[SocketRocket]

Because we don't want to pay the taxes to fund the training and build the medical schools?

I do and there's plenty of places we could stop wasting money to help fund it.

 

[SocketRocket]

I agree on the bursaries/training etc but I still think you're exhibiting double standards. Is it ok for there to be shortage of housing and running water in those countries? I 'get' that life is more important than a house, if you're going to take it to a base level, but I feel that your argument is flawed.

Thats Ok but we disagree, for me health is a special priority and something we as a wealthy nation should be prioritising funding.
problem is that if I agree with you we would both be wrong 😉