Our NHS are amazing

[ColchesterFC]

Been in recruitment for 10 years so it's been both political sides of the coin and to be perfectly honest things at the shop floor level hasn't changed over that time and we've openly recruited from wherever we can get the best, competent staff. We got huge media coverage about 5-6 years ago when we went out and got 50 or so Irish nurses in en masse. Many (I don't have numbers but I'd suggest at least 50%) are still in the trust.

To be brutally honest, all I am interested in is getting the bast staff member for each role and where they come from, subject to right to work checks, references, etc is largely irrelevant. All our team is trying to do is get the best staff to ensure we a) cut agency costs so more money can be allocated t patient services and b) ensure wards have the best knowledge and experience available to give patients the best experience and outcome possible. Of course we get it wrong at times. We aren't alone in that though. I don't know the answer and I can only do what I can with the resources available

I'm fairly sure that SR wasn't arguing against having non-UK trained staff working in the NHS, but more that we are allowing other countries to pick up the tab for training these staff who are then coming to work in the NHS rather than working in the countries that trained them. Personally I don't have any problem with recruiting skilled staff from overseas to these roles as we clearly have shortages in those areas but don't we have some kind of responsibilities towards the countries that are paying for the training? I would like to see a system whereby if we recruit a nurse/midwife/doctor from another country then for each year they spend working for the NHS we agree to refund a % of the cost of their training to their home country. Where is the incentive to train more UK residents to do these jobs if we can skip the cost of training them by importing staff who have already been trained?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm fairly sure that SR wasn't arguing against having non-UK trained staff working in the NHS, but more that we are allowing other countries to pick up the tab for training these staff who are then coming to work in the NHS rather than working in the countries that trained them. Personally I don't have any problem with recruiting skilled staff from overseas to these roles as we clearly have shortages in those areas but don't we have some kind of responsibilities towards the countries that are paying for the training? I would like to see a system whereby if we recruit a nurse/midwife/doctor from another country then for each year they spend working for the NHS we agree to refund a % of the cost of their training to their home country. Where is the incentive to train more UK residents to do these jobs if we can skip the cost of training them by importing staff who have already been trained?

In an ideal world that would be worthy but when we are under funded, I can't see how it's a workable scheme. It's not a case of skipping the cost of training new staff, more a case of the universities failing to attract new pupils in and keeping them throughout the three year course (they suffer retention issues too). I don't see a way of that changing anytime soon.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

My daughter will qualify as a midwife in September after a 3 year degree course

She has not had the "standard" student experience,(whole summer off and a month off at Xmas and Easter), she gets 3 weeks off in the summer. And she does a 4 week stint in the classroom 9-5.30 5 days a week, then a 6 week placement in one of the clinical areas working a full week including night shifts and 13 hour working days shadowing her mentor

She still has to complete uni work, projects , presentations etc. While working shifts, it is recognised that Midwifery is one of the toughest degrees to obtain.
But she loves it, not many people can say that they have delivered 31 babies before their 21st birthday , she needs 9 more over the summer.

Midwifery is very hard to get on the course, you can only have as many trainees as you have mentors, to increase the numbers you need to boost the number of mentors. But you can't just do that overnight

I know that York gets 1400 applications for only 20 places, my daughters cohort in one of the major cities numbers about 60.

So the key to training more midwives is to have more experienced midwives joining the mentoring program

 

[SocketRocket]

In an ideal world that would be worthy but when we are under funded, I can't see how it's a workable scheme. It's not a case of skipping the cost of training new staff, more a case of the universities failing to attract new pupils in and keeping them throughout the three year course (they suffer retention issues too). I don't see a way of that changing anytime soon.

Whats wrong with an ideal World, do we prefer a faulty one. It's not a matter of being under funded it's more to do with how the money is spent, we continue to spend masses on Bank staff.

You are completely wrong to suggest the universities are not able to attract new pupils, two thirds of applicants are not offered places. Maybe you cant see any way of changing that but i Can.

Take a look at this link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs...-thirds-of-local-applicants-are-rejected.html

 

[HomerJSimpson]

My daughter will qualify as a midwife in September after a 3 year degree course

She has not had the "standard" student experience,(whole summer off and a month off at Xmas and Easter), she gets 3 weeks off in the summer. And she does a 4 week stint in the classroom 9-5.30 5 days a week, then a 6 week placement in one of the clinical areas working a full week including night shifts and 13 hour working days shadowing her mentor

She still has to complete uni work, projects , presentations etc. While working shifts, it is recognised that Midwifery is one of the toughest degrees to obtain.
But she loves it, not many people can say that they have delivered 31 babies before their 21st birthday , she needs 9 more over the summer.

Midwifery is very hard to get on the course, you can only have as many trainees as you have mentors, to increase the numbers you need to boost the number of mentors. But you can't just do that overnight

I know that York gets 1400 applications for only 20 places, my daughters cohort in one of the major cities numbers about 60.

So the key to training more midwives is to have more experienced midwives joining the mentoring program

Glad she's found it so fulfilling and I hope the final placement, exams etc go well (and if she want's to come to Reading........). The problem you outline is very valid but again it comes down to getting and retaining those with the knowledge and drive to mentor and pass their experience on, especially in a real time clinical environment. I know we work continuously with UWL through our practice educators, mentors, matrons and senior management to ensure we continue to attract the newly qualifieds through their course and onto our books. However, if we take a slight tangent if I may, we also offer secondments for existing nursing staff who will then be retrained as a midwife (normally an 18 month programme - again from memory!!) and we and UWL have historically struggle to get enough onto the courses. We are even going down the line of trying to second from neighbouring trusts like Frimley and Wexham onto the course. I don't know how over/under subscribed their normal midwifery scheme is but I would doubt it matches the numbers in York

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm not an expert but I think the bottom line is simply we as a nation aren't getting enough people into the university places. How you change that and make nursing a career that is aspirational as you could argue it was in the 60's and 70's. Even in Ireland which has always had a reputation for producing nursing staff to fill the gaps in our UK compliment is now struggling to get their own staff through the training process

In the 60's and 70's Nurses were graded and didnt need to be a graduate. Maybe we should be doing this now so it would be quicker/easier to train some Nurses who don't need to have a university degree to do their jobs.

 

[FairwayDodger]

I think retention must be at least as big an issue as recruitment. Seems the NHS is just a terrible environment to work in and we're losing so many good people.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

In the 60's and 70's Nurses were graded and didnt need to be a graduate. Maybe we should be doing this now so it would be quicker/easier to train some Nurses who don't need to have a university degree to do their jobs.

This already happens, there are Staff nurses who do the clinical stuff, and healthcare assistants ( used to be called Auxiliary Nurses) who do the routine bed pan stuff

 

[SocketRocket]

This already happens, there are Staff nurses who do the clinical stuff, and healthcare assistants ( used to be called Auxiliary Nurses) who do the routine bed pan stuff

Yes, I understand that. We used to have SENs,SRNs and Auxiliary Nurses. I believe SEN Nurses were a slightly lower grade and didnt have the same level of training as SRNs.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I must say I have had some very mixed dealings with my local hospital recently, all in the same hospital.
First was the youngest who ended up having some bowel surgery and removal. The pre surgery wasn't that clever, poor attention to detail and nurses who didn't listen to instructions, having a nurses station with 8 staff at it ignoring you completely until you shout. Post operative, not immediately having a bed to go to straight after theatre, but totally excellent care in the high dependency unit with the lowest staff grade being staff nurse. There is one caveat to this, and that's pharmacy......the delay to get medication sent up was appalling, half a day to get melds sent up is just appalling and was the same at discharge time.
The second was my mother. Having been taken in for poor breathing she was stuck on an assessment ward where it seemed all the staff were students, as they were when they moved her to the old persons ward. I will say though that when she passed away the senior staff on the ward we dealt with were very considerate and helpful.
Overal I can't help but feel the care standards vary to wildly to be good for the service.

 

[chrisd]

I must say I have had some very mixed dealings with my local hospital recently, all in the same hospital.
First was the youngest who ended up having some bowel surgery and removal. The pre surgery wasn't that clever, poor attention to detail and nurses who didn't listen to instructions, having a nurses station with 8 staff at it ignoring you completely until you shout. Post operative, not immediately having a bed to go to straight after theatre, but totally excellent care in the high dependency unit with the lowest staff grade being staff nurse. There is one caveat to this, and that's pharmacy......the delay to get medication sent up was appalling, half a day to get melds sent up is just appalling and was the same at discharge time.
The second was my mother. Having been taken in for poor breathing she was stuck on an assessment ward where it seemed all the staff were students, as they were when they moved her to the old persons ward. I will say though that when she passed away the senior staff on the ward we dealt with were very considerate and helpful.
Overal I can't help but feel the care standards vary to wildly to be good for the service.

A sad story that through my own experiences I can completely concur with.

 

[Tashyboy]

Could not agree more re pharmacy. When Missis T was finally discharged last year, it took half a day to get her medication. The hospital was desperate for beds and yet it takes an age to get medication so you can go home and free up a bed. She was not the only one on the ward either. Another couple were that fed up, a guy took his wife home and asked to be called via phone when they have the medication in.
For me a lot of what is wrong with the NHS is the way things are done. Missis T had an email yesterday saying your departments training is running at 58% and is not acceptable. Er did you factor in last months training which we all did. Er no we didn't.
patients frustrations are passed onto front line staff who mostly do an excellent job.