New Rules - Flag left in hole

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

With the new rule about being able to putt with the flag in the hole - and no penalty for hitting it - in place...a little pedantic detail question - but something I haven't seen mentioned (possibly as it is irrelevant with the new rule).

If I choose to ask the flag to be attended, but for whatever reason it is not removed and my ball hits it...what's the ruling.

 

[Leftie]

Same as now I believe.

 

[drdel]

Nothing...

 

[Colin L]

With the new rule about being able to putt with the flag in the hole - and no penalty for hitting it - in place...a little pedantic detail question - but something I haven't seen mentioned (possibly as it is irrelevant with the new rule).

If I choose to ask the flag to be attended, but for whatever reason it is not removed and my ball hits it...what's the ruling.

The reason why it isn't removed matters.
If it is accidental, there is no penalty and you play the ball as it lies.
If it is deliberate on the part of the person attending the flagstick, you get a 2 stroke penalty if it was your caddie or your partner. If it was another player, he/she gets the 2 stroke penalty, not you. If your stroke was made on the putting green, you must cancel the stroke, place your. ball back on the spot from which it had been played and putt again.

See Rule 13.2b(2) for the penalties.
Rule 11.2c for where to play your ball from.

Edit: My apologies for an earlier mistake in this posting. The sentence in red is correct.

 

[jim8flog]

The player may leave the flagstick in the hole or have it removed (which includes having someone tend the flagstick and remove it after the ball is played), but must decide before making a stroke.

As you have asked for the flagstick to be attended your intention is to have it removed before the ball reaches the hole.

In my opinion it is therefore a penalty.

 

[Colin L]

The player may leave the flagstick in the hole or have it removed (which includes having someone tend the flagstick and remove it after the ball is played), but must decide before making a stroke.

As you have asked for the flagstick to be attended your intention is to have it removed before the ball reaches the hole.

In my opinion it is therefore a penalty.

It's not a matter of opinion. It's what Rule 13.2(b) says. No penalty if it is accidental. No penalty to you if it was deliberately done by another player. Penalty to you if it was deliberately done by your caddie, your partner or your partner's caddie.

• Ball Accidentally Hits Flagstick or Person Who Removed or Is Attending It. If the player’s ball in motion accidentally hits the flagstick or the person who removed or is attending it (or anything the person is holding), there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies.
• Ball Deliberately Deflected or Stopped by Person Attending Flagstick. If the person who is attending the flagstick deliberately deflects or stops the player’s ball in motion, Rule 11.2c applies:
• • Where Ball Is Played from. The player must not play the ball as it lies and instead must take relief under Rule 11.2c.
  • When Penalty Applies. If the person who deliberately deflected or stopped the ball was a player or his or her caddie, that player gets the general penalty for a breach of Rule 11.2.

 

[clubchamp98]

That dosnt make sense “why would your caddy deliberately leave the flag in when you can have it in anyway?”

 

[Colin L]

The rule is about what the person who is attending the flagstick does. The player obviously wants it to be removed - that's why he has it attended. But the person attending might not lift out in time, be dozy enough to forget to lift, even (as I heard of recently) might just walk away while the ball is on its way. Alternatively, he/she might deliberately engineer the ball hitting the flagstick or himself/herself.

 

[2blue]

That dosnt make sense “why would your caddy deliberately leave the flag in when you can have it in anyway?”

Cos it may be manipulated to gain an advantage, I'd say

 

[clubchamp98]

Cos it may be manipulated to gain an advantage, I'd say

How if it’s still in the hole?

 

[Colin L]

How if it’s still in the hole?

The person attending the flagstick might deliberately leave the flagstick in the hole in the hope of slowing down an over heavy putt. He is manipulating the situation even if he is not physically manipulating the flagstick.

In essence, we are talking about any deliberate attempt to influence the movement of the ball whether by action or inaction.

 

[jim8flog]

It's not a matter of opinion. It's what Rule 13.2(b) says. No penalty if it is accidental. No penalty to you if it was deliberately done by another player. Penalty to you if it was deliberately done by your caddie, your partner or your partner's caddie.

• Ball Accidentally Hits Flagstick or Person Who Removed or Is Attending It. If the player’s ball in motion accidentally hits the flagstick or the person who removed or is attending it (or anything the person is holding), there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies.
• Ball Deliberately Deflected or Stopped by Person Attending Flagstick. If the person who is attending the flagstick deliberately deflects or stops the player’s ball in motion, Rule 11.2c applies:
• • Where Ball Is Played from. The player must not play the ball as it lies and instead must take relief under Rule 11.2c.
  • When Penalty Applies. If the person who deliberately deflected or stopped the ball was a player or his or her caddie, that player gets the general penalty for a breach of Rule 11.2.

The OP did not quote why the flag was left in the hole. It was a speculative question therefore my referral to the original intent.

 

[Colin L]

Have we been reading from different song sheets? Mine said "If I choose to ask the flag to be attended, but for whatever reason it is not removed and my ball hits it...what's the ruling."

But who am I to talk, having just been guilty elsewhere of a spectacular misreading of a new rule.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

So theres a penalty for the flag attender if they deliberately leave a pin in when its been requested attended, but not if I take a putt on a horrinle downhill lie and leave the pin in knowing if it hits the pin it will either knock the ball in or take a lot of roll and energy out of it and leave a much shorter return putt. Both are deliberate thoughts and actions surely?

 

[Colin L]

So theres a penalty for the flag attender if they deliberately leave a pin in when its been requested attended, but not if I take a putt on a horrinle downhill lie and leave the pin in knowing if it hits the pin it will either knock the ball in or take a lot of roll and energy out of it and leave a much shorter return putt. Both are deliberate thoughts and actions surely?

Leaving the flagstick in is allowed as a choice you make before you make your stroke. A deliberate interference with a ball in motion occurs after the stroke has been made and being an attempt to change the outcome of that stroke (for better or worse) obviously cannot be allowed.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Leaving the flagstick in is allowed as a choice you make before you make your stroke. A deliberate interference with a ball in motion occurs after the stroke has been made and being an attempt to change the outcome of that stroke (for better or worse) obviously cannot be allowed.

Having just read the players edition, it is clear and I agree my question was pointless, Apologies.

 

[clubchamp98]

The person attending the flagstick might deliberately leave the flagstick in the hole in the hope of slowing down an over heavy putt. He is manipulating the situation even if he is not physically manipulating the flagstick.

In essence, we are talking about any deliberate attempt to influence the movement of the ball whether by action or inaction.

Yes I see the point you are making ! But would it take two shots to get back to the hole from a bad putt if he just takes the flag out.

This change was unnecessary imo .

One of my pps will NOT putt if there is a ball in the hole , does he have the right to ask for it to be removed?

I always remember a commentator on the telly saying “ it’s a big advantage to have the flag in the hole, that’s why you are not allowed to do it when you are putting” Peter Allis I think.

Probably never more than 20yds from hole on greens at my place so can’t really see any time saved.

Player 1 wants flag out
Player 2 wants it in
player 3 wants it out
Player 4 wants it in

Start over ? Can see lots of footprints around the hole.

 

[Colin L]

Having just read the players edition, it is clear and I agree my question was pointless, Apologies.

No apologies please. Asking a question isn't pointless.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The OP did not quote why the flag was left in the hole. It was a speculative question therefore my referral to the original intent.

The flag was in the hole because the player asked for it to be attended. By asking for the flag to be attended he wants it removed. So now it is clear that accidentally not removing it does not bring a penalty - if it is deliberately not removed that means the person attending wishes to influence the ball - perhaps by pushing it to one side in an attempt to stop an overhit putt.

So the answer to my question appears to be.

If I ask for the flag to be attended - then it must not be deliberately left in - even although the rules now permit the flag to be left in the hole when I am putting. Asking to have the flag attended changes the scenario and circumstances where a ball played from on the green can hit the flag without penalty.

I did not know the answer but I had a feeling that this might be the case - but was over-ruled by all my mates who thought 'no penalty' regardless.

 

[duncan mackie]

The reason why it isn't removed matters.
If it is accidental, there is no penalty and you play the ball as it lies.
If it is deliberate on the part of the person attending the flagstick, you get a 2 stroke penalty if it was your caddie or your partner. If it was another player, he/she gets the 2 stroke penalty, not you. You must estimate where the ball would have ended up it had not been deliberately stopped/ deflected and place your ball there.

See Rule 13.2b(2) for the penalties.
Rule 11.2c for where to play your ball from.

Just noticed this (The bold, italic, underlined bit!) which seems potentially misleading in this context.
Surely the stroke would be cancelled and replayed if made from the putting green (which the OP strongly implied).
I agree that if the putt had been made from the fringe (or anywhere else other than the putting green) then the stroke counts and the ball gets put there (placed if that spot is on the putting green etc)