Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Wouldn't it be simpler to just leave the flag in all the time...
New Rules - Flag left in hole
- Thread starter SwingsitlikeHogan
- Start date
Colin L
Tour Winner
Absolutely right, Duncan. That's the spectacular misreading I was referring to making elsewhere and I overlooked that I had repeated it here. I've edited it out and put in the correct procedure. Thanks for noticing.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Sorry Dunc/Colin. I am now a bit confused. My OP was specifically about the scenario in which I was on the green - but I was not specific about who I had asked to attend the flag - and that now seems to matter?
From what has been explained I (think I) understand that if I ask the flag to be attended when I am putting from on the green - then there may be a penalty if I hit the flag still in the hole depending upon who has been asked to attend it - and whether the failure to remove the flag was deliberate or not.
Has the rule about what is deemed to be attending the flag been removed? i.e. the rule that said that a player does not have to be actually holding the flag for him to be deemed to be attending it.
From what has been explained I (think I) understand that if I ask the flag to be attended when I am putting from on the green - then there may be a penalty if I hit the flag still in the hole depending upon who has been asked to attend it - and whether the failure to remove the flag was deliberate or not.
Has the rule about what is deemed to be attending the flag been removed? i.e. the rule that said that a player does not have to be actually holding the flag for him to be deemed to be attending it.
Colin L
Tour Winner
You'll get the full story from Rule 13.2
You don't have to be holding the flagstick to be considered to be attending it - no change there.
The penalty for deliberately stopping or deflecting the ball when attending the flagstick goes like this:
If it is your caddie, your partner or your partner's caddie, you get the penalty.
If it is another player, he/she gets the penalty.
You don't have to be holding the flagstick to be considered to be attending it - no change there.
The penalty for deliberately stopping or deflecting the ball when attending the flagstick goes like this:
If it is your caddie, your partner or your partner's caddie, you get the penalty.
If it is another player, he/she gets the penalty.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
And that all still applies under the new rule that allows us to putt wit the flag left in.
As soon as the flag is attended, or is deemed to be attended, the circumstances that allowed you to play with the flag in change and the 13.2 rules apply and supersede.
MadAdey
Money List Winner
If you ask for the flag to be attended, so that it can be removed when the ball gets to the hole, but you over hit the ball and then you leave the flag in to stop the ball. That to me is manipulation of the rule and has to have a rule to stop it.
Colin L
Tour Winner
I fear this is getting more apparently complicated than it is. R 13.2 doesn't supersede the permission to putt with the flagstick in. It actually starts with stating that you can do so. [R13.2a(1)]. As I mentioned, it gives you the whole story of using the flagstick.
There is a clear distinction between accidental and deliberate stopping or deflection of a ball. Accidental = no penalty. Deliberate = 2 stroke penalty (aka "general penalty"): alll you need to remember is who gets the penalty. I hope this summary will help
- Hitting the flastick when unattended - no penalty to anyone and play the ball as it lies.
- Accidentally hitting the flagstick when attended or the person attending it or anything that person is holding - no penalty to anyone and play the ball as it lies.
- Ball deliberately stopped or deflected by the person attending the flagstick - 2 stroke penalty to the player if flagstick was being attended by his caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie; no penalty to the player if it was being attended by anyone else. Cancel the stroke, place your ball on the spot from which it had been played, and putt again.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Exactly.
As soon as you accept that there may be an advantage in leaving the flag in in certain circumstances, and having it removed in others, it naturally follows that such situations may become apparent (or in play) after the stroke is made. The rules don't permit you to change your decision after the strojemis made, nor does it permit your partner or caddy to do so on your behalf.
In practice accidents are obvious, as are deliberate actions.
Again, time and time again threads and posts on here have emphasised that they believe that accidents shouldn't, as far as possible, be penalised at all.
The ruling bodies would appear to have agreed.
rulie
Head Pro
So, are you saying that if you choose to have the flagstick attended, the attendant must remove it after the stroke has been made? If not removed, what happens?
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
That is covered in the post you have quoted.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Just back from a most enjoyable game with my fellow seniors (or "wrinklies" as my wife insists on calling us).
What I meant was that you can't choose to have someone attend the flagstick and then change your mind and tell him to leave it in once you have made your stroke. I don't see any requirement on the attendant to remove the flagstick if he sees the putt is going to be way off target or, like so many of mine, pull up woefully short of the hole. And of course nothing happens if the ball doesn't hit him or the flagstick whether he has removed it or not. But I'm not sure if I'm answering the question.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
So, putting from on the green:
1. I have the flag attended and by mistake it is not removed and my ball hits it - No Penalty
2. I have the flag attended by my caddie or PP and it is deliberately not removed and my ball hits it - Penalty on me
3. I have the flag attended by a.n.other and it is deliberately not removed and my ball hits it - Penalty on he who was attending
4. I leave the flag unattended and my ball hits it - No Penalty
1. I have the flag attended and by mistake it is not removed and my ball hits it - No Penalty
2. I have the flag attended by my caddie or PP and it is deliberately not removed and my ball hits it - Penalty on me
3. I have the flag attended by a.n.other and it is deliberately not removed and my ball hits it - Penalty on he who was attending
4. I leave the flag unattended and my ball hits it - No Penalty
Colin L
Tour Winner
I'd hate to be the one informing the guy who never removed the flag when attending and telling him he's got a penalty for it, the rest of the round could be a bit awkward.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
For completeness....1 & 4 ball played as it lies
2 & 3 stroke replayed
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
If he did it deliberately he deserves it - what's awkward? Current situation is the awkward one!
If done deliberately then yes, how does one define a deliberate act though, say he lapsed in concentration ?
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
The rules now differentiate; deliberate is deliberate - anything else isn't deliberate.
Ultimately the committee would have to decide whether it was deliberate.
rulefan
Tour Winner
characterized by or resulting from careful and thorough consideration, a deliberate decision, awareness of the consequences
Colin L
Tour Winner
I got a tale of woe from one of our staff who is a member at another club. Her opponent was attending the flagstick and while the ball was trundling towards the hole just walked away. The ball hit the flagstick. The opponent was suitably apologetic .....while at the same time claiming the hole. I did ask if she had had the decency to concede the next hole, but she hadn't.
I find it hard to accept that walking away like that from a flagstick you are attending can be accidental.
I find it hard to accept that walking away like that from a flagstick you are attending can be accidental.
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