New lockdown will courses close?

[BubbaP]

Just for a bit of a distraction, I wouldn't be surprised if some driving ranges, especially the top tracer style ranges, were areas of spread. Observed groups sharing bays etc.
Obviously could have closed the ranges but left the courses open.

 

[Jamesbrown]

It’s not about guilt it’s about realism that this virus is affecting the country in many ways - you can still go out and exercise and get fresh air , you haven’t been stopped from doing that just like you weren’t stopped from doing before.

It’s not my choice what is allowed or not - every single one of us will have a different opinion based on our own personal reasons and choices. People far more informed than us are making the choices and giving the evidence , they are the ones that are putting everything on the line - we are being asked to do something very small in the grand scheme of things. Life at times is unfair , sometimes we need to make sacrifices for the potential greater good - I would rather have a 4 week break now from playing golf than not be able to see other family over Xmas.

So you want to see family over Christmas which I highly presume would be in an indoor setting in a home which I would find highly probable that would be the most high risk transmission scenario bar none.

But we should accept the ban on golf to help?

No not having that.

 

[USER1999]

When they announced the lockdown, I always expected golf to be cancelled. It was. It was always going to be. It's lazy, maybe, but once something like golf is allowed, tennis, bowling, swimming, boules, dominoes, whatever gets to be considered. It would take months to filter out who can, and who cannot continue with their chosen activity.
Yes, to us golfers, it's obvious we should continue, but it just opens a door of contention once there starts to be exceptions.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So you want to see family over Christmas which I highly presume would be in an indoor setting in a home which I would find highly probable that would be the most high risk transmission scenario bar none.

But we should accept the ban on golf to help?

No not having that.

Yes I want to see family if rules permit , family i haven’t seen for months.

 

[robinthehood]

When they announced the lockdown, I always expected golf to be cancelled. It was. It was always going to be. It's lazy, maybe, but once something like golf is allowed, tennis, bowling, swimming, boules, dominoes, whatever gets to be considered. It would take months to filter out who can, and who cannot continue with their chosen activity.
Yes, to us golfers, it's obvious we should continue, but it just opens a door of contention once there starts to be exceptions.

Exceptions have already been made. Stables, equestrian centres, riding schools were meant to close, but the governing bodies of those lobbied successfully to have them removed from the list.

 

[USER1999]

Exceptions have already been made. Stables, equestrian centres, riding schools were meant to close, but the governing bodies of those lobbied successfully to have them removed from the list.

Because horses need exercising? Like dogs.

 

[Jamesbrown]

Yes I want to see family if rules permit , family i haven’t seen for months.

And that’s fine. But the very notion of allowing a Christmas covid party blows the logic of the lockdown and closure of courses out the water, utterly pointless and a waste of time.

 

[robinthehood]

Because horses need exercising? Like dogs.

They do indeed , but I'm sure some could go without riding lessons for a month.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

And that’s fine. But the very notion of allowing a Christmas covid party blows the logic of the lockdown and closure of courses out the water, utterly pointless and a waste of time.

who says anything about a Xmas party ? It will be just my parents and my family

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Just for a bit of a distraction, I wouldn't be surprised if some driving ranges, especially the top tracer style ranges, were areas of spread. Observed groups sharing bays etc.
Obviously could have closed the ranges but left the courses open.

I have been avoiding Toptracer ranges (Lavender Park in Ascot being my nearest). They have been very good down there with cleaning the bay after use and have allocated ten minutes between sessions to do that but I still feel touching a screen that others have used is an unnecessary risk. I've also fallen out of love with Toptracer as a practice aid so it was an easy decision

 

[USER1999]

They do indeed , but I'm sure some could go without riding lessons for a month.

They could, but then who would ride the horses?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Well, you can speak for yourself in relation to how informed you are, but Chris Whitty, Jon van Tam and Patrick Vallance have made it very clear, as it obvious from even a cursory read of the data, that this is a condition which is spread by close and prolonged contact indoors in poorly ventilated places. If you think a golf course fulfils that, fine, don't play, but you have no right guilting other people who think differently.

Opening golf courses to operate under England Golf rules will make precisely no difference to your chance of having a family Christmas, but you should note that having a family Christmas may affect your chances of having another lockdown in January. So if you are really concerned about the greater good and all that other stuff, you will tell your rellies to stay where they are and have a Zoom Christmas.

I note that you have been asked twice to tell me what else you think should not be allowed, but you have not answered so presumably you think the current rules are 100% perfect and need absolutely no adjustment.

The differences between Ethan and Phil on this question of playing golf are less important than the efforts to knock back the rates of infection.
The data clearly has frightened the hell,out of the Drs and medical experts, and it's clear Ethan knows the medical facts and implications.
But I don't think he would claim to be more of an expert in human behaviour than a lot of us.
And that is an important factor in the spread of this virus.
Bear with me for showing an extract from scientists about the spread.

"Individuals with COVID-19, many of whom have no symptoms, release thousands of virus-laden aerosols and far fewer droplets when breathing and talking (4–6). Thus, one is far more likely to inhale aerosols than be sprayed by a droplet (7), and so the balance of attention must be shifted to protecting against airborne transmission. In addition to existing mandates of mask-wearing, social distancing, and hygiene efforts, we urge public health officials to add clear guidance about the importance of moving activities outdoors, improving indoor air using ventilation "etc.

So, yes, indoor socialising is the main spreader, but why? It's obvious, but not frequently spelled out.
It's because it's potential victims breathing in the expelled breath of someone with Covid
So, a Covid positive breathing amongst a group will probably infect that group if they breath in that person's expelled air.

However,that does not mean that it only happens indoors, does it Ethan?
If a group is standing close, talking and laughing out on the golf course, I reckon , and all must agree with you, that there is a very very slim chance that it happens. But if that group is stood under a veranda next to a clubhouse wall, I.e, a somewhat confined area, then it can happen, surely?
( just imagine they are smoking, you can see how all the breathed out smoke hangs about and is breathed in by others)

Well that's what happens at my golf club, and I suspect at many others.
There's no way that at all the golf courses ,you would only get guys walking out on to the course, playing and then going home, having properly SD at all times.
There would be many instances similar to the one I described that I've seen.
It's what uncaring or unthinking people do when there are numbers of people around.

That is a risk that there would not be if the golf course is closed.
SILH has said that a cumulation of small risks is important, and so it is.
And so, all in all, I think it right to ask people not to play golf for a short while, because otherwise, there would be a risk.

I know there are anomalies elsewhere, but that doesn't change the risk at golf clubs.

As for thinking that it's sensible to have a usual Christmas this year, family members gathering in the lounge together for hours, or around the family dining table etc, it's an inconvenient truth that such behaviour will really fuel the spread of this nasty virus, unless we have a vaccine issued by this time.

My plea is, "Let's us be objective about this and behave so that lives are saved"

 

[robinthehood]

They could, but then who would ride the horses?

Also fishing successfully dealt with the dcms in allowing thier sport to carry on, I guess those fish need exercising too...
I see that it clearly doesn't suit your narrative, I'll leave it there.

 

[Jamesbrown]

who says anything about a Xmas party ? It will be just my parents and my family

It was just to accentuate and dramatise.
Christmas is a good release as is golf and you should enjoy it safely.

 

[94tegsi]

.
There's no way that at all the golf courses ,you would only get guys walking out on to the course, playing and then going home, having properly SD at all times.
"

Isnt that exactly what everyone did when courses first opened?

 

[Beezerk]

Bloody hell, it's a golf forum, surely we're allowed to moan about golf courses being closed aren't we?
Bonkers ?

 

[robinthehood]

Bloody hell, it's a golf forum, surely we're allowed to moan about golf courses being closed aren't we?
Bonkers ?

Apparently not ??

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It's the absurdity of the logic that's annoying people.
People are still going to work, kids are going to school...
Many businesses that, on the face of it should be shut, are open..Riding schools being one from earlier in the thread.
If the Powers that Be have data implicating certain areas of society as probable transmission hot spots then show us the numbers..
Give us a chance to understand why..why an area of open ground can be used for one relativly uncontrolled activity ( walking) but not another, quite markedly controlled with set times of admission, numbers and traceability.

One word on risk of transmission - aggregation

 

[clubchamp98]

Bloody hell, it's a golf forum, surely we're allowed to moan about golf courses being closed aren't we?
Bonkers ?

Should be mandatory.
It’s part of your green fees to have a little moan!

 

[Ethan]

The differences between Ethan and Phil on this question of playing golf are less important than the efforts to knock back the rates of infection.
The data clearly has frightened the hell,out of the Drs and medical experts, and it's clear Ethan knows the medical facts and implications.
But I don't think he would claim to be more of an expert in human behaviour than a lot of us.
And that is an important factor in the spread of this virus.
Bear with me for showing an extract from scientists about the spread.

"Individuals with COVID-19, many of whom have no symptoms, release thousands of virus-laden aerosols and far fewer droplets when breathing and talking (4–6). Thus, one is far more likely to inhale aerosols than be sprayed by a droplet (7), and so the balance of attention must be shifted to protecting against airborne transmission. In addition to existing mandates of mask-wearing, social distancing, and hygiene efforts, we urge public health officials to add clear guidance about the importance of moving activities outdoors, improving indoor air using ventilation "etc.

So, yes, indoor socialising is the main spreader, but why? It's obvious, but not frequently spelled out.
It's because it's potential victims breathing in the expelled breath of someone with Covid
So, a Covid positive breathing amongst a group will probably infect that group if they breath in that person's expelled air.

However,that does not mean that it only happens indoors, does it Ethan?
If a group is standing close, talking and laughing out on the golf course, I reckon , and all must agree with you, that there is a very very slim chance that it happens. But if that group is stood under a veranda next to a clubhouse wall, I.e, a somewhat confined area, then it can happen, surely?
( just imagine they are smoking, you can see how all the breathed out smoke hangs about and is breathed in by others)

Well that's what happens at my golf club, and I suspect at many others.
There's no way that at all the golf courses ,you would only get guys walking out on to the course, playing and then going home, having properly SD at all times.
There would be many instances similar to the one I described that I've seen.
It's what uncaring or unthinking people do when there are numbers of people around.

That is a risk that there would not be if the golf course is closed.
SILH has said that a cumulation of small risks is important, and so it is.
And so, all in all, I think it right to ask people not to play golf for a short while, because otherwise, there would be a risk.

I know there are anomalies elsewhere, but that doesn't change the risk at golf clubs.

As for thinking that it's sensible to have a usual Christmas this year, family members gathering in the lounge together for hours, or around the family dining table etc, it's an inconvenient truth that such behaviour will really fuel the spread of this nasty virus, unless we have a vaccine issued by this time.

My plea is, "Let's us be objective about this and behave so that lives are saved"

The expectation in all environments, including the supermarket, takeaway restaurant etc is that people act sensibly. The prohibition on golf is not because some members at your club might stand under a verandah. They could do the same at Tesco. It is part of a simplistic ban on outside sport. According to Dr Chris Smith, clinical lecturer in virology at the University of Cambridge, the chances of Covid-19 transmission outside were “vanishingly small” because “the amount of dilution from fresh air is so high”. Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance agree. For reference, "vanishingly small" means effectively negligible.

But if you want to reduce even a very, very slim chance, then you need to close schools, universities, limit the number of visits to the supermarket per week, marshal people in those supermarkets on social distancing and mask wearing, prohibit self identification of exempt status, stop pubs selling takeaway beer, make sure people at the supermarket, out exercising etc don't stand near one another, and most importantly of all, do not promise people they can still meet for Christmas. Because that will result in increased cases again. We are being asked to store up deaths and admissions for late December and January.

Your plea is mis-stated. Being objective is precisely what is needed, because objectivity means being willing to examine the different issues, and it is simply false to infer that all elements of these rules will save lives.