New Local Rules

[chrisd]

I wonder if there were these discussions when the original provisional ball rules were introduced.

Fundamentally the same issue of known v unknown - could, might etc apply

I fully appreciate that many members of this group don't accept stableford scoring as real golf, so it's hardly surprising that the discussions are as they are.

The reality is that this, and other rule changes, are fundamentally designed to avoid extending the suffering - not only of the player involved, the players in his/her group but everyone playing behind them on the course.

Whether 3 off the tee is really enough is enough territory or not can be debated ad infinitum, but the crux of handicap golf is that handicaps adjust to the players performances under the circumstances played ie ultimately it doesn't even matter if the rule does enable a particular player and his style to gain an edge - it would be very short term.

I just wonder for some though Duncan is whether they can reconcile the point you make which largely revolves around handicaps and the other side of the coin which is the potential to lose a comp to a player who, let's say, has lost 2 balls with wild 260 yard drives on separate holes, and has only lost 2 extra penalty shots than he currently loses but can drop on the fairway 260 yards down the fairway which to many seems a huge advantage?

 

[jusme]

Many talk about it not being golf if this LR becomes the norm. I look at ti different. Slow play is the death of golf. The LR discussed here will reduce time on the course. If slow play continues golf will die in time. For me it is that simple

 

[Colin L]

Yes, it's about stopping players from taking the long walk back because they didn't play a provisional, or maybe didnt realise that their ball wouldn't be found, especially with the reduced search time. The question being asked is the fairness of a lost or oob ball only costing one more shot penalty than playing 3 off the tee from maybe 250 yards back with the added risk of going oob or losing another ball

I just don't understand the point of comparing stroke and distance with the LR as if one player could get an unfair advantage of the LR while another was disadvantaged by having to play stroke and distance. Every player in the field and each side of a match has the choice between one or the other and will obviously choose whichever option is thought to be to their better advantage. An added tactical choice in fact. Two players in stroke play, two players in match play could put their ball out of bounds at the same point and each opt for a different option. If one chooses S&D and the other dropping near where the ball went off the course, neither has an unfair advantage over the other. S&D may carry greater risk but the player opting for it will ony do so because he sees greater reward. In match play, just another of the choices you make according to the state of the match - take a risk or play more cautiously. In short, since there is a free choice to each an every player each and every time he/she loses a ball or it goes OB, neither is unfair.

There are other choices built in:
You do not have to decide on playing by the LR at the moment you play a shot that might be lost or OB. You can have an unsuccessful search and go back and play S&D if you don't want to use the LR.
Before your 3 minutes search time is up, you can leave others searching and go back to play a provisional ball. If your original ball is found within time, it is still in play. If it isn't, you have saved a bit of time on the "long walk back".
The one action that commits you is playing a provisional. That excludes the choice of the LR .

 

[User 99]

Brilliantly put.

 

[jim8flog]

Playing a provisional is not always known, have you never played were guys have hit decent shots and believed the ball is in bounds or not lost, only to walk up and find out that’s not the case.

I always ask the guys I am playing with if they are going to hit a provisional. It makes them think about it.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I always ask the guys I am playing with if they are going to hit a provisional. It makes them think about it.

If you don’t think a ball is lost or oob why even mention a provisional?
It’s not only an option off the tee.

 

[jim8flog]

If you don’t think a ball is lost or oob why even mention a provisional?
It’s not only an option off the tee.

I often play with guys who are too sure that the ball was not OB or are too optimistic about their chances of finding it.

I think playing a provisional is always the way to go and this year with our rough at an all time high I probably have hit more provisionals than any other year.

Playing a provisional only adds a minute or so to a round, particularly if you are already doing the sensible thing of carrying a second ball in your pocket.

 

[rulefan]

Of course you can't play a provisional every time, only id your ball may be lost or OB.

 

[jim8flog]

There are other choices built in:
You do not have to decide on playing by the LR at the moment you play a shot that might be lost or OB. You can have an unsuccessful search and go back and play S&D if you don't want to use the LR.
Before your 3 minutes search time is up, you can leave others searching and go back to play a provisional ball.
.

You cannot do this. You must choose to play a provisional ball either straight away or within a reasonable distance of leaving the spot where the ball was last played from.

 

[Colin L]

You cannot do this. You must choose to play a provisional ball either straight away or within a reasonable distance of leaving the spot where the ball was last played from.

That will no longer be the case. Check out Interpretaion 18.3a/2

18.3a/2
Playing Provisional Ball After Search Has Started Is Allowed
A player may play a provisional ball for a ball that might be lost when the original ball has not been found and identified even if the three-minute search time has not yet ended.
For example, if a player is able to return to the spot of his or her previous stroke and play a provisional ball before the three-minute search time has ended, the player is allowed to do so.
If the player plays the provisional ball and the original ball is then found within the three-minute search time, the player must continue play with the original ball.

 

[rulie]

You cannot do this. You must choose to play a provisional ball either straight away or within a reasonable distance of leaving the spot where the ball was last played from.

That changes in 2019. The player can play a provisional any time (within the three minutes permitted for search).

 

[Franco]

I have been following this topic with interest, as I have been known to hit a ball OOB. What I would like to know is just what this possible LR actually says. I have looked on the CONGU website up to today's notice which refers to a document with advice to committees, but it isn't there. Can a golfer replace an OOB ball with a drop on the fairway near where the ball went out for a two stroke penalty?

 

[rulefan]

I have been following this topic with interest, as I have been known to hit a ball OOB. What I would like to know is just what this possible LR actually says.

The model LR is on this page below the video and diagrams
http://www.usga.org/content/usga/ho...nges/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

This is the CONGU note: (Click 'Handicaps' on LHS and then 'Advice to Committees'.

Alternative to Stroke and Distance
The Committee Procedures allow for the introduction of additional relief options when a ball is lost outside a penalty area or out of bounds, by way of Model Local Rule E-5. This local rule is appropriate for general play where golfers are playing casual rounds or playing their own competitions. Under the CONGU® Unified Handicapping System scores must not be submitted for handicap adjustment if this local rule is in place. Where the Local Rule is in use for general play, the club must ensure they remind players it is not allowed when scores are to be submitted for handicap adjustment (Qualifying Competitions and Supplementary Scores).

 

[User 99]

I have been following this topic with interest, as I have been known to hit a ball OOB. What I would like to know is just what this possible LR actually says. I have looked on the CONGU website up to today's notice which refers to a document with advice to committees, but it isn't there. Can a golfer replace an OOB ball with a drop on the fairway near where the ball went out for a two stroke penalty?

 

[Franco]

The model LR is on this page below the video and diagrams
http://www.usga.org/content/usga/ho...nges/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

This is the CONGU note: (Click 'Handicaps' on LHS and then 'Advice to Committees'.

Alternative to Stroke and Distance
The Committee Procedures allow for the introduction of additional relief options when a ball is lost outside a penalty area or out of bounds, by way of Model Local Rule E-5. This local rule is appropriate for general play where golfers are playing casual rounds or playing their own competitions. Under the CONGU® Unified Handicapping System scores must not be submitted for handicap adjustment if this local rule is in place. Where the Local Rule is in use for general play, the club must ensure they remind players it is not allowed when scores are to be submitted for handicap adjustment (Qualifying Competitions and Supplementary Scores).

Thank you for your comprehensive answer, I have now caught up with the others posting on this thread. The video, unlike CONGU, doesn't state that the LR cannot be used in Qualifying competitions. I am unclear what is the benefit of the LR if it only applies to casual games, as that is bound to lead to confusion. What is the position for competitions that don't affect handicaps such as Foursomes and 4BBB?

 

[rulefan]

Thank you for your comprehensive answer, I have now caught up with the others posting on this thread. The video, unlike CONGU, doesn't state that the LR cannot be used in Qualifying competitions. I am unclear what is the benefit of the LR if it only applies to casual games, as that is bound to lead to confusion. What is the position for competitions that don't affect handicaps such as Foursomes and 4BBB?

The video is produced by the USGA and R&A - the rulemakers.
CONGU are only one of number of handicapping authorities. In this case for GB & Ireland.
For some, as yet unexplained reason, CONGU has decided to be out of step with the rest of the world re handicapping.
Within CONGU, the ban only applies to rounds that affect handicaps. ie qualifiers (including supplementary scores).
The LR may be used for all other golf including matchplay, casual/social, foursomes, 4BBB, scrambles .... at the discretion of the organising committee.

 

[jim8flog]

That will no longer be the case. Check out Interpretaion 18.3a/2

18.3a/2
Playing Provisional Ball After Search Has Started Is Allowed
A player may play a provisional ball for a ball that might be lost when the original ball has not been found and identified even if the three-minute search time has not yet ended.
For example, if a player is able to return to the spot of his or her previous stroke and play a provisional ball before the three-minute search time has ended, the player is allowed to do so.
If the player plays the provisional ball and the original ball is then found within the three-minute search time, the player must continue play with the original ball.

That changes in 2019. The player can play a provisional any time (within the three minutes permitted for search).

Thanks for the info.

Not a long time to back get to the right place , sort yourself out and play the provisional if you have already been looking for the first ball for some time, if say your first shot was 200 yards was from where you hit it.
Looks like there might be a lot of running done

 

[rulefan]

Of course, the others in your group can continue the search while you get your breath back.

 

[Colin L]

It would be possible, I think, to realise on approaching where you think your ball is that it could unexpectedly be difficult to find, and go back to play a provisional while others search. If you haven't begun to search, you have plenty of time to go back.

 

[duncan mackie]

It would be possible, I think, to realise on approaching where you think your ball is that it could unexpectedly be difficult to find, and go back to play a provisional while others search. If you haven't begun to search, you have plenty of time to go back.

Although obviously those players hitting it 280 OOB constantly referenced in this thread might struggle to get their 'provisional' stroke off before the 3min mark!

To my mind this is one of those changes that is designed to remove the issues associated with 'going forward to search' previously, and taken with the reduced search time, becomes self balancing ie you are going to have to pretty quickly decide you should hit a provisional in order to be hitting a provisional!