Missed tee time question

[delc]

As far as I know, the secretary was in charge on the day and the decision cam from him, despite him being the one that authorised the swap in tee times to begin with.

The player in question is reluctant to now say something as he doesn't want to create a bad name for himself after the event, but I can't help feeling this is just wrong.

If the same guy made both decisions that is even worse! If the player was allowed to start without any warnings that he might be DQ'd later, then his round should stand as far as I am concerned. If has was going to be DQ'd for being late, this should have been done before he started. As the club sec agreed to the switch in tee times, he should stand by his decision!

 

[delc]

Provided the player had a good excuse for being late, then the exception to Rule 6-3a should apply anyway. Suggest that he writes a polite letter to the committee explaining what happened and asking on what grounds he was disqualified.

 

[Old Skier]

These things always end up in a buggers muddle hence the reason for good conditions of comp that covers all these sort of things to avoid someone coming up with a snap decision at the time which is normally the wrong one.

 

[duncan mackie]

Provided the player had a good excuse for being late, then the exception to Rule 6-3a should apply anyway. Suggest that he writes a polite letter to the committee explaining what happened and asking on what grounds he was disqualified.

You will have read the decision regarding the exception - excuses hardly qualify! Even reasons have to be pretty extreme and completely beyond control.

 

[delc]

These things always end up in a buggers muddle hence the reason for good conditions of comp that covers all these sort of things to avoid someone coming up with a snap decision at the time which is normally the wrong one.

We have a somewhat similar dispute going on at our club, concerning our Senior's Scratch Championship. Historically this was run alongside the main Club Championship, but due to low numbers taking part, a previous Seniors Captain decided to run it alongside a normal Seniors Stableford qualifier, a format that has been kept. It was a drawn competition and we were supposed to go off in handicap order, low handicappers first. However a low handicapper put his name down as a reserve, and when somebody with a high handicap dropped out, he took that spot. Unfortunately he went on to win the Scratch prize, much to the disgust of another low handicapper who thought he had won it. He has made a written complaint to the club committee about this. I was also a bit miffed because I came 3rd in the Scratch Championship, but 2nd in the handicap comp. I had to take 3rd prize in the scratch comp, which was worth less than 2nd prize in the handicap comp. However I haven't complained about this.
Questions arising:
1) Can you run a scratch and a handicapped competition at the same time?
2) Can you accept a reserve entry into the scratch competition, who plays out of handicap order?

 

[doublebogey7]

We have a somewhat similar dispute going on at our club, concerning our Senior's Scratch Championship. Historically this was run alongside the main Club Championship, but due to low numbers taking part, a previous Seniors Captain decided to run it alongside a normal Seniors Stableford qualifier, a format that has been kept. It was a drawn competition and we were supposed to go off in handicap order, low handicappers first. However a low handicapper put his name down as a reserve, and when somebody with a high handicap dropped out, he took that spot. Unfortunately he went on to win the Scratch prize, much to the disgust of another low handicapper who thought he had won it. He has made a written complaint to the club committee about this. I was also a bit miffed because I came 3rd in the Scratch Championship, but 2nd in the handicap comp. I had to take 3rd prize in the scratch comp, which was worth less than 2nd prize in the handicap comp. However I haven't complained about this.
Questions arising:
1) Can you run a scratch and a handicapped competition at the same time?
2) Can you accept a reserve entry into the scratch competition, who plays out of handicap order?

Nothing in the rules to prevent either, completely at the discretion of the organising committee. The committee seem to have made an unusual decision in your case but to me the other complanant has no grounds, he was beaton fare and square.

 

[delc]

You will have read the decision regarding the exception - excuses hardly qualify! Even reasons have to be pretty extreme and completely beyond control.

I assume that if the club secretary allowed the later start, he must have considered that the player had a good reason for being late.

 

[rulefan]

Questions arising:
1) Can you run a scratch and a handicapped competition at the same time?
2) Can you accept a reserve entry into the scratch competition, who plays out of handicap order?

No problem with either. The committee has full discretion.

PS See your PMs

 

[Foxholer]

2) Can you accept a reserve entry into the scratch competition, who plays out of handicap order?

By far the most sensible thing to do! Otherwise, you'd have to juggle the pairings/times around, which would cause far more chaos!

Absolutely no grounds for complaint by the runner-up!

 

[Old Skier]

We have a somewhat similar dispute going on at our club, concerning our Senior's Scratch Championship. Historically this was run alongside the main Club Championship, but due to low numbers taking part, a previous Seniors Captain decided to run it alongside a normal Seniors Stableford qualifier, a format that has been kept. It was a drawn competition and we were supposed to go off in handicap order, low handicappers first. However a low handicapper put his name down as a reserve, and when somebody with a high handicap dropped out, he took that spot. Unfortunately he went on to win the Scratch prize, much to the disgust of another low handicapper who thought he had won it. He has made a written complaint to the club committee about this. I was also a bit miffed because I came 3rd in the Scratch Championship, but 2nd in the handicap comp. I had to take 3rd prize in the scratch comp, which was worth less than 2nd prize in the handicap comp. However I haven't complained about this.
Questions arising:
1) Can you run a scratch and a handicapped competition at the same time?
2) Can you accept a reserve entry into the scratch competition, who plays out of handicap order?

All of your questions depend on the clubs conditions of entry. If they have not run the comps accordingly then a complaint is warrented. If they have no conditions of entry and they are making decisions on the fly these sorts of problems will go on.

 

[delc]

All of your questions depend on the clubs conditions of entry. If they have not run the comps accordingly then a complaint is warrented. If they have no conditions of entry and they are making decisions on the fly these sorts of problems will go on.

In past years neither of these issues came up, because the Scratch Championship was won by one of the low handicappers who went out early and the handicap prizes were won by higher handicap players who went out later. If there are no specific conditions of competition to cover the points I raised, what is the default position?

 

[Ethan]

In this case, the issue is that the player did meet his tee time, except it was a tee time amended legally by an agent of the Committee. Therefore the penalty doesn't arise and even if it was later determined that the time shouldn't have been changed, it was then too late because the player has been allowed to start (and in fact finish) his round.

For players who simply decide themselves to start early or late, the rules are pretty clear.

 

[Slab]

We have a somewhat similar dispute going on at our club, concerning our Senior's Scratch Championship. Historically this was run alongside the main Club Championship, but due to low numbers taking part, a previous Seniors Captain decided to run it alongside a normal Seniors Stableford qualifier, a format that has been kept. It was a drawn competition and we were supposed to go off in handicap order, low handicappers first. However a low handicapper put his name down as a reserve, and when somebody with a high handicap dropped out, he took that spot. Unfortunately he went on to win the Scratch prize, much to the disgust of another low handicapper who thought he had won it. He has made a written complaint to the club committee about this. I was also a bit miffed because I came 3rd in the Scratch Championship, but 2nd in the handicap comp. I had to take 3rd prize in the scratch comp, which was worth less than 2nd prize in the handicap comp. However I haven't complained about this.
Questions arising:
1) Can you run a scratch and a handicapped competition at the same time?
2) Can you accept a reserve entry into the scratch competition, who plays out of handicap order?

Do you know on what grounds the guy in 2nd is complaining?

Is it because they took a reserve or that the reserve played out of handicap order

i.e is it possible the chap in 2nd would have played any differently if he knew an FC was teeing off later?

 

[delc]

Do you know on what grounds the guy in 2nd is complaining?

Is it because they took a reserve or that the reserve played out of handicap order

i.e is it possible the chap in 2nd would have played any differently if he knew an FC was teeing off later?

Both I believe. As they have similar handicaps they might have ended up in the same playing group, but this is not certain. I personally don't think he has a leg to stand on.

 

[Jay1]

In this case, the issue is that the player did meet his tee time, except it was a tee time amended legally by an agent of the Committee. Therefore the penalty doesn't arise and even if it was later determined that the time shouldn't have been changed, it was then too late because the player has been allowed to start (and in fact finish) his round.

For players who simply decide themselves to start early or late, the rules are pretty clear.

This is my thinking completely. He knows he shouldn't have been late and that there are rules covering it. But he did all he could to let the club know and it had seemed that an allowance had been made by the secretary and the starter. For that to then be changed after 36 holes seems unfair, to say the least.

 

[Slab]

Both I believe. As they have similar handicaps they might have ended up in the same playing group, but this is not certain. I personally don't think he has a leg to stand on.

Tend to agree, its not as if it was a match so he's got to play better than the rest of the field. He prob just wants an explanation of the reserve element. I cant believe he'd take the win now anyway knowing that it was on 'appeal' & not the best score

 

[doublebogey7]

In past years neither of these issues came up, because the Scratch Championship was won by one of the low handicappers who went out early and the handicap prizes were won by higher handicap players who went out later. If there are no specific conditions of competition to cover the points I raised, what is the default position?

There is no default position as these are points outwith the rules of golf. The committee must therefore take a view base on what would be fare . This they seem to have done if you ask me.

 

[Old Skier]

what is the default position?

Have good "Conditions of Competion" policies as recommended by CONGU and England Golf. Although getting members to read them is another matter.

 

[delc]

Tend to agree, its not as if it was a match so he's got to play better than the rest of the field. He prob just wants an explanation of the reserve element. I cant believe he'd take the win now anyway knowing that it was on 'appeal' & not the best score

I think his argument is that the Seniors Scratch Championship should be a closed drawn competition sent out in handicap order. The reserve (who won but played out of sequence) should only have been allowed to enter the handicap competition.

 

[duncan mackie]

I assume that if the club secretary allowed the later start, he must have considered that the player had a good reason for being late.

Completely unrelated issues. What the club decides appropriate to amending a tee time is up to them entirely.
The application of the rules to a situation is subject to the rules.