Missed tee time question

[Jay1]

Quick question for those in the know on all things rules.

I know that if you miss an allotted tee time it's a 2 shot penalty if you're there within 5 minutes and a DQ thereafter. However, in a comp where the club secretary as well as a started are there and both are notified that a player may be late, and agree to let them swap with the match behind, at what point should the DQ come in to effect.

This doesn't relate to me, but at the weekend I know of someone who missed their time by about 7 minutes. The sec and starter had been informed and said shouldn't be a problem for them to swap places with the match behind. This then happened and the player completed their round. It was only after the round that they were then told that they were DQ'd for missing their tee time.

Obviously had the player been told at the start that his arrival late would result in a DQ, he would then have had the option not to actually play.

I understand that it is technically a DQ, but can the committee use any discretion here and, by the sec and starter allowing the player to go out, does this amount to such discretion?

 

[Ethan]

Quick question for those in the know on all things rules.

I know that if you miss an allotted tee time it's a 2 shot penalty if you're there within 5 minutes and a DQ thereafter. However, in a comp where the club secretary as well as a started are there and both are notified that a player may be late, and agree to let them swap with the match behind, at what point should the DQ come in to effect.

This doesn't relate to me, but at the weekend I know of someone who missed their time by about 7 minutes. The sec and starter had been informed and said shouldn't be a problem for them to swap places with the match behind. This then happened and the player completed their round. It was only after the round that they were then told that they were DQ'd for missing their tee time.

Obviously had the player been told at the start that his arrival late would result in a DQ, he would then have had the option not to actually play.

I understand that it is technically a DQ, but can the committee use any discretion here and, by the sec and starter allowing the player to go out, does this amount to such discretion?

Well, I would think that if the secretary agreed to allow a swap of a tee time, then you adopt the latter time and have to meet it. Say you were originally 11.00 and you were swapped with 11.10, then if you arrive at 11.11, 2 shot penalty, at 11.16, DQ.

If they intended to apply the penalty but were moving groups for their own convenience, they should have notified the player, but by allowing him to tee off, they had de facto excluded the possibility of DQ for lateness.

 

[delc]

Quick question for those in the know on all things rules.

I know that if you miss an allotted tee time it's a 2 shot penalty if you're there within 5 minutes and a DQ thereafter. However, in a comp where the club secretary as well as a started are there and both are notified that a player may be late, and agree to let them swap with the match behind, at what point should the DQ come in to effect.

This doesn't relate to me, but at the weekend I know of someone who missed their time by about 7 minutes. The sec and starter had been informed and said shouldn't be a problem for them to swap places with the match behind. This then happened and the player completed their round. It was only after the round that they were then told that they were DQ'd for missing their tee time.

Obviously had the player been told at the start that his arrival late would result in a DQ, he would then have had the option not to actually play.

I understand that it is technically a DQ, but can the committee use any discretion here and, by the sec and starter allowing the player to go out, does this amount to such discretion?

I would have thought that if the swapped tee times were approved by a committee member, there should be no penalty or DQ, as long as the player was on the 1st tee before the revised time.

 

[Jay1]

This is kind of my thinking. As the secretary allowed him to tee off at the later time, by swapping, this has effectively amended his tee time and therefore should not have been a DQ.

This situation is even more annoying for him as it was a 36 hole comp, so he played all day only to be told after that he had been disqualified.

 

[bladeplayer]

Committee have opened a can of worms here id say ,As far as i know there is an exception to the teeing time rule (rule 6-something) that the committee can allow change in exceptional circumstances .. if the starter & the sec allowed this on behalf of the club then no penalty should be applied

If the started & the sec acted outside their remit they need a kick up the small donkey , all the players who teed off late should be DQ along with the group that tee'd off early

All get penalised or none

Just my opinion of course . proper rule will be given by someone more knowledgeable

 

[delc]

Committee have opened a can of worms here id say ,As far as i know there is an exception to the teeing time rule (rule 6-something) that the committee can allow change in exceptional circumstances .. if the starter & the sec allowed this on behalf of the club then no penalty should be applied

If the started & the sec acted outside their remit they need a kick up the small donkey , all the players who teed off late should be DQ along with the group that tee'd off early

All get penalised or none

Just my opinion of course . proper rule will be given by someone more knowledgeable

You could hardly penalise the group that teed off early, if they were asked to do so by the starter or club secretary! If only one player was late in the following playing group, it would also be unfair to DQ the whole group (which might have happened in this case?).

 

[fundy]

Seriously, give some people a little power and they go crazy.

Once they have agreed to switch the tee times then that should be the end of it, to even consider DQ is ridiculous and to not tell someone until he had played 36 holes is just rubbing it in.

I hate to think of the reaction if this happened at our club, thankfully it never will for me to find out tho!

 

[bladeplayer]

You could hardly penalise the group that teed off early, if they were asked to do so by the starter or club secretary!

If they ( starter or sec) have not permission to tell the guy he can start late they also have not got permission to tell the guys to start early either , hence the can of worms i mentioned ,


you cant change the rules to order , all or none DQ , harsh i know but thems the rules as i see it

First group DQ on Rule 6-3a
Second Group DQ on rule 6-3a5

 

[bladeplayer]

Seriously, give some people a little power and they go crazy.

Once they have agreed to switch the tee times then that should be the end of it, to even consider DQ is ridiculous and to not tell someone until he had played 36 holes is just rubbing it in.

I hate to think of the reaction if this happened at our club, thankfully it never will for me to find out tho!

100% correct

 

[Ethan]

Don't disagree that they mightn't have the power, but the player acted reasonably in assuming the secretary's word was good and he was effectively acting as a proxy for the committee, so the change should have been honoured.

I don't agree that either group breached 6-3. In decision 6-3/a-5, the wording "Unless the Committee considers that the players have started early as a result of an error by the Committee or its representative .." prefaces the answer. This is precisely what happened here.

 

[delc]

If they ( starter or sec) have not permission to tell the guy he can start late they also have not got permission to tell the guys to start early either , hence the can of worms i mentioned ,


you cant change the rules to order , all or none DQ , harsh i know but thems the rules as i see it

First group DQ on Rule 6-3a
Second Group DQ on rule 6-3a5

If the club secretary doesn't have the right to amend tee times on behalf of the committee, who does?

 

[bladeplayer]

Don't disagree that they mightn't have the power, but the player acted reasonably in assuming the secretary's word was good and he was effectively acting as a proxy for the committee, so the change should have been honoured.

I don't agree that either group breached 6-3. In decision 6-3/a-5, the wording "Unless the Committee considers that the players have started early as a result of an error by the Committee or its representative .." prefaces the answer. This is precisely what happened here.

Im agreeing that no one should be DQ '

What im saying is if they did DQ one person for being late and seeing as the starter and the comp sec do not have the power to make the changes in EQUITY all have to be DQ as they all broke the rules (on wrong advice )

Stupid decision by the club anyhow to DQ the player

 

[bladeplayer]

If the club secretary doesn't have the right to amend tee times on behalf of the committee, who does?

Good golly ..


if the club sec DOES HAVE the right as you say , then WHY did the player that was told it was ok by the club sec to be late get DQ'd ?

 

[Jay1]

I don't think that the group in front can be penalised, and the remainder of the late guy's group were there and ready to go on time, so don't think there can be penalty for them.

Basically, they guy knew he was going to miss his time. He contacted the club and the secretary and the starter agreed his group could switch with the group behind. He was there and ready to go 7 minutes after his originally tee time therefore directly swapping with the group that should have been behind him.

At conclusion of the 36 holes the secretary then informed him that he had been DQ'd as he had missed his original time by 7 minutes.

To rub salt in to all this, this was a club champs and he won the handicap prize (or should have).

To begin with he just accepted it, begrudgingly, but the more we think about this the more it seems wrong. Had the secretary said in the morning, sorry but if you are late it's a DQ, then fine. But having allowed him to go out one slot later, and then DQ at the end of the day seems completely unjust.

 

[bladeplayer]

I don't think that the group in front can be penalised, and the remainder of the late guy's group were there and ready to go on time, so don't think there can be penalty for them.

Basically, they guy knew he was going to miss his time. He contacted the club and the secretary and the starter agreed his group could switch with the group behind. He was there and ready to go 7 minutes after his originally tee time therefore directly swapping with the group that should have been behind him.

At conclusion of the 36 holes the secretary then informed him that he had been DQ'd as he had missed his original time by 7 minutes.

To rub salt in to all this, this was a club champs and he won the handicap prize (or should have).

To begin with he just accepted it, begrudgingly, but the more we think about this the more it seems wrong. Had the secretary said in the morning, sorry but if you are late it's a DQ, then fine. But having allowed him to go out one slot later, and then DQ at the end of the day seems completely unjust.

As i say i was just giving you my thoughts on the rule , some of the more knowledgeable will be along to give you a definitive answer

 

[pbrown7582]

I don't think that the group in front can be penalised, and the remainder of the late guy's group were there and ready to go on time, so don't think there can be penalty for them.

Basically, they guy knew he was going to miss his time. He contacted the club and the secretary and the starter agreed his group could switch with the group behind. He was there and ready to go 7 minutes after his originally tee time therefore directly swapping with the group that should have been behind him.

At conclusion of the 36 holes the secretary then informed him that he had been DQ'd as he had missed his original time by 7 minutes.

To rub salt in to all this, this was a club champs and he won the handicap prize (or should have).

To begin with he just accepted it, begrudgingly, but the more we think about this the more it seems wrong. Had the secretary said in the morning, sorry but if you are late it's a DQ, then fine. But having allowed him to go out one slot later, and then DQ at the end of the day seems completely unjust.

totally agree and I would be querying the decision and asking for an explanation.

 

[Jay1]

I've just spoken to the guy concerned again, and he's told me that it was only on giving the second card in, to the secretary, that he said "ahhhhh we may have to talk about you being late". That just makes it sound like the rule was only applied because he'd done well in the comp.

 

[delc]

totally agree and I would be querying the decision and asking for an explanation.

Sounds as though the DQ might have been applied by the Competition Secretary, who was unaware of the Club Secretary's earlier decision to swap tee times. Definitely worth an appeal I would think.

 

[Jay1]

As far as I know, the secretary was in charge on the day and the decision cam from him, despite him being the one that authorised the swap in tee times to begin with.

The player in question is reluctant to now say something as he doesn't want to create a bad name for himself after the event, but I can't help feeling this is just wrong.

 

[duncan mackie]

As far as I know, the secretary was in charge on the day and the decision cam from him, despite him being the one that authorised the swap in tee times to begin with.

The player in question is reluctant to now say something as he doesn't want to create a bad name for himself after the event, but I can't help feeling this is just wrong.

This is unfortunately a relatively classis situation.

All year round clubs get calls from people held up, accident whatever and they can generally accommodate the necessary change fine. New tee slot agreed, played and everyone's happy.

Along comes a major/trophy event with drawn groups and tee times. Same delay, same discussion and a relatively automated same response - after which a little thought kicks in and you get the sort of mess outlined here!

We had a briefing on exactly this for our club championships a couple of weeks ago to head off any confusion.

However, once the rescheduled tee time has been implemented by the committee and the player has met it, they shouldn't change their minds - this view is based on the situation presented and that may not of course cover everything.
Overall the player is now in an impossible position, and the committee look a shambles (when they simply started out by trying to be accommodating).
Real shame.