Matchplay - Foursomes / Lining up a playing partner (2 parts)

Steven Rules

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. I would guess if it reaches the committee, they’ll encourage both sides to agree to a replay, as that seems like a better resolution than to turn up just to play the playoff hole!
If it reaches the Committe, the Commitee can only decide that the match result is locked in, there is no capacity to revisit the result. See #6.
 

Steven Rules

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Not disputing the rulings cited and conclusions reached, but I find the rule a bit odd in the context of foursomes, fourball yes and for obvious reasons. In foursomes a pair is playing ‘as one’ and so I’d instinctively think the non-shot playing partner can take precisely the same view as the playing partner. Four ball is quite different as each player is playing his own shots for his own score. They then choose the best. So wondering on the logic of the rule for foursomes…I’m sure there will be something I’m missing.
The bit you seem to be missing is that no player can get assistance from anybody on their side (i.e. caddie or player) to line up a stroke regardless of format. The player needs to rely on their own skill.
 
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salfordlad

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Not disputing the rulings cited and conclusions reached, but I find the rule a bit odd in the context of foursomes, fourball yes and for obvious reasons. In foursomes a pair is playing ‘as one’ and so I’d instinctively think the non-shot playing partner can take precisely the same view as the playing partner. Four ball is quite different as each player is playing his own shots for his own score. They then choose the best. So wondering on the logic of the rule for foursomes…I’m sure there will be something I’m missing.
In any golf, only one person makes the actual stroke. And RBs are very clear that the player cannot have someone lining them up, it is something only the player can be responsible for.
 

Orikoru

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There are so many misunderstandings here it is hard to know where to start. Your opponents were simply wrong, they made a rubbish claim and you acceded to it. This is the risk if you can't get your head around the rule. There is/was no automatic penalty for 'being there'. The breach is for helping and being there when the stroke is made. It can be avoided by both backing away prior to the stroke. And there is no penalty for inadvertently being there.
At the time we were only in our 2nd or 3rd year of club membership, 'youngsters' in golf terms in our early 30s, and our opponents were the club secretary and his son. You can probably see why we took their word for it, and looking back that leaves an even sourer taste now. Just didn't expect someone in that position to essentially bastardise a rule for their own gain. Naivety perhaps, thinking that everyone was like us and just wanted a good game of golf.
 

clubchamp98

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As I mentioned, I think this is the case.
Which begs the question, if someone does this, is asked not to, and politely declines, what then?
Is there a Mexican standoff while the decisions chapter of the rulebook is analysed in ever decreasing circles?
I always thought the player playing the shot can ask his op to stand somewhere else if he is distracting him.
A no even a polite one is just not on.
Just etiquette!
 

salfordlad

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At the time we were only in our 2nd or 3rd year of club membership, 'youngsters' in golf terms in our early 30s, and our opponents were the club secretary and his son. You can probably see why we took their word for it, and looking back that leaves an even sourer taste now. Just didn't expect someone in that position to essentially bastardise a rule for their own gain. Naivety perhaps, thinking that everyone was like us and just wanted a good game of golf.
Yes, this is all understandable. The sad part for me is there is a very good chance that there was nothing sinister in this, the club secretary was also utterly ignorant of the rule. While this may sound a bit cliched, for anyone that is going to play the game longer term, I think there will be significant benefit from gradually reading through the Rule book and playing on the R&A Rules Academy site, doing the quizzes and the Level 1 test - it's a steady building process. This is all cost free beyond some of your time and I think it adds enjoyable depth to the richness of playing the game.
 

clubchamp98

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Yes, this is all understandable. The sad part for me is there is a very good chance that there was nothing sinister in this, the club secretary was also utterly ignorant of the rule. While this may sound a bit cliched, for anyone that is going to play the game longer term, I think there will be significant benefit from gradually reading through the Rule book and playing on the R&A Rules Academy site, doing the quizzes and the Level 1 test - it's a steady building process. This is all cost free beyond some of your time and I think it adds enjoyable depth to the richness of playing the game.
I learnt the rules by breaking most of them when I first started.

I said to pps “ pull me up if I break a rule and just explain why”

I think people are reluctant to pull someone up nowadays for fear of offending them or creating an atmosphere.
Plus they are so complicated now it’s easy to make a mistake.
We need an app now for this.
 

Swango1980

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I learnt the rules by breaking most of them when I first started.

I said to pps “ pull me up if I break a rule and just explain why”

I think people are reluctant to pull someone up nowadays for fear of offending them or creating an atmosphere.
Plus they are so complicated now it’s easy to make a mistake.
We need an app now for this.
I think many people are like that.

I played with a chap once, whose ball was right up against a young sapling, sprouting up to about waist height. Once we identified his ball, I looked on in amazement when he planted both feet either side of the sapling, grabbed it with both hands, and started pulling with all his might to rip it out of the ground. I shouted "wow, wow, wow, stop. You can't do that". He looked at me in surprise, asking why not? After all, it was making his shot impossible.

Worrying thing was, he'd already been playing for at least a year or 2 by this point. But, at least that was a golden rule he learnt that day.
 

Neilds

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I think many people are like that.

I played with a chap once, whose ball was right up against a young sapling, sprouting up to about waist height. Once we identified his ball, I looked on in amazement when he planted both feet either side of the sapling, grabbed it with both hands, and started pulling with all his might to rip it out of the ground. I shouted "wow, wow, wow, stop. You can't do that". He looked at me in surprise, asking why not? After all, it was making his shot impossible.

Worrying thing was, he'd already been playing for at least a year or 2 by this point. But, at least that was a golden rule he learnt that day.
Amazing! Everybody knows it is easier to bang a stake in next to the sapling :ROFLMAO:
 

Swango1980

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Amazing! Everybody knows it is easier to bang a stake in next to the sapling :ROFLMAO:
To be fair, it wasn't exactly a sapling that the club had planned to grow, I just couldn't think of a better way to describe it at the time.

It was one of those really annoying growths you sometimes get when you are in the trees, where you simply have one or 2 wooden stalks growing out of the ground. It would have probably been in everyone's interest if he succeeded in pulling it out, as some much needed course maintenance. But, of course, extremely against the rules :)
 

chellie

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I learnt the rules by breaking most of them when I first started.

I said to pps “ pull me up if I break a rule and just explain why”

I think people are reluctant to pull someone up nowadays for fear of offending them or creating an atmosphere.
Plus they are so complicated now it’s easy to make a mistake.
We need an app now for this.

Not everyone who has played for a long time knows the correct rules though as we know.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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The bit you seem to be missing is that no player can get assistance from anybody on their side (i.e. caddie or player) to line up a stroke regardless of format. The player needs to rely on their own skill.
I actually understand that…it is my instinct that is wrong in feeling that a foursomes pair is playing as a single competitor…it’s not - just often feels that way to me. As has been confirmed, they are two separate competitors hitting a single ball.
 

Steven Rules

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I actually understand that…it is my instinct that is wrong in feeling that a foursomes pair is playing as a single competitor…it’s not - just often feels that way to me. As has been confirmed, they are two separate competitors hitting a single ball.
Even if your instinct was 'right' in feeling that a foursomes pair is playing as a single competitor (and I note you have acknowledged this isn't the right way to think of it), a player in a singles competition cannot get assistance from their caddie to line up a stroke.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Even if your instinct was 'right' in feeling that a foursomes pair is playing as a single competitor (and I note you have acknowledged this isn't the right way to think of it), a player in a singles competition cannot get assistance from their caddie to line up a stroke.
I must be misinterpreting this as it implies that in foursomes I cannot help my partner with his shot. But whilst we do not, or should not, stand behind the line of a partners putt to see what happens, do we not all do this on every shot (to one extent or another). Unless you are being specific to singles play as opposed to one player of a pair in a foursomes comp.
 

Slab

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I must be misinterpreting this as it implies that in foursomes I cannot help my partner with his shot. But whilst we do not, or should not, stand behind the line of a partners putt to see what happens, do we not all do this on every shot (to one extent or another). Unless you are being specific to singles play as opposed to one player of a pair in a foursomes comp.

Am I reading you wrong or are you overlapping, helping/giving advice to a player on same side as you and the distinct act of lining up another player?
 
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